The Euro Zone Compared To The Fall Of The Roman Empire

ThailandTom

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18159752

person

I agree, I think its a problem across the whole developed world though and not just in the EU.

RichardH

The Eurozone didn't create any kind of identity did it? Romans were Romans, wherever they were... any nation, as long as they played the game. It was a Civilization. Knowledge and memory does not depend on the European Union. It always had an unnatural ring to it... The common folk didn't go along...or take pride. Common knowledge isn't about to be lost with it's dissolution either.

Maybe the world is looking more like 1900 than 900... or pre-1939 in some ways. All that post war one-world idealism..... poof. We are going back to the Ottomans and Kaisers..etc.

....but that is a stretch too.

Mountains

We're just beginning to see the stirrings of an earth that's telling us in many subtle, and some not so subtle ways that the way we've been doing things isn't working anymore. There are just plain too many humans on the planet. The distribution of wealth is too lopsided. Our dependence on petrochemicals and synthetic garbage is killing us. The earth knows this. Humans know this, but the vast majority are too self-absorbed to recognize, much less to understand it, much *less* do anything about it. We're running headlong toward a very high cliff, with our feet firmly on the accelerator pedal.

RichardH

We're just beginning to see the stirrings of an earth that's telling us in many subtle, and some not so subtle ways that the way we've been doing things isn't working anymore. There are just plain too many humans on the planet. The distribution of wealth is too lopsided. Our dependence on petrochemicals and synthetic garbage is killing us. The earth knows this. Humans know this, but the vast majority are too self-absorbed to recognize, much less to understand it, much *less* do anything about it. We're running headlong toward a very high cliff, with our feet firmly on the accelerator pedal.

So you are not a big optimist, eh? :thumbsup:


I guess we'll find out. In the mean time we each have our own private end of the world.

Mountains

Is there really good reason for big picture optimism? Surely there are optimistic things here and there, but the overall trend across the globe is economic disintegration, environmental collapse, and overpopulation. I don't see it as pessimism, I see it as realism.

person

TURNING and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

The Second Coming - William Butler Yates

Dakini

I think the EuroZone was ill-conceived. How could they have thought that Greece and Spain and Portugal (not to mention Italy, maybe) could keep up with the other economies? And who approved all those loans that created huge bubbles in Spain, and even the Baltic States? Well, we'll see how it all settles out.

RichardH

Is there really good reason for big picture optimism? Surely there are optimistic things here and there, but the overall trend across the globe is economic disintegration, environmental collapse, and overpopulation. I don't see it as pessimism, I see it as realism.

Mountains.. pessimism...cynicism about the human condition is always called "realism" by pessimists and cynics... always. Don't get me wrong, I am not an optimist either. But I ask you... The world is like this... or that... compared to what exactly? Did your mama make you a promise? Did God? Is there another world you are measuring it against? Where? The world.. samsara, has a gazillion angles, pessimistic.. optimistic.. but when we sit with no angle.. what is it?

Samsara hurts.. news flash.


btw "your mama" was rhetorical.... no offence

NomaDBuddha

I think the EuroZone was ill-conceived. How could they have thought that Greece and Spain and Portugal (not to mention Italy, maybe) could keep up with the other economies? And who approved all those loans that created huge bubbles in Spain, and even the Baltic States? Well, we'll see how it all settles out.

Euro zone was not ill conceived. It was the decision to add poor Eastern European countries to the Union, without any solid plan for 'investing' in their development that brought the crisis upon EU.

ThailandTom

@person I liked The Second Coming, nice find

Well I agree with Mountains here, I personally think the west has had it's day and things will continue to change.

I was going to make another thread on this but I will throw it in here. Does anybody think that we are rushing into the future too fast? Technology is advancing at a rapid rate and I am hearing new terminology and phrases which I have to ask what they mean very often, I feel like an old man sometimes There are so many aspects of this mordern world that we are ignorant to how they work for the vast majority. For example science, we see the end results but it is only a small percentage of people who understand how the process works. I feel as a race we are heading into the future faster and faster almost blinding ourselves, walking into unknown areas and we need to slow down.

Mountains

pessimism...cynicism about the human condition is always called "realism" by pessimists and cynics... always. Don't get me wrong, I am not an optimist either. But I ask you... The world is like this... or that... compared to what exactly? Did your mama make you a promise? Did God? Is there another world you are measuring it against? Where? The world.. samsara, has a gazillion angles, pessimistic.. optimistic.. but when we sit with no angle.. what is it?

Samsara hurts.. news flash.

Tell me when in the history of human kind we've been so close to not only economic/social collapse, but on top of it the collapse of the ecosystem, agriculture, etc, etc, etc? It's never happened on remotely like this scale in human history. Certainly we've had major events before, but we've never had the kind of population we have now, and we've not had the level of screwed up mess environmentally (that we've produced) before. We're on totally new ground here.

RichardH

I would rather live...and have my child live, now, than say... 1900, 1939, 1200, 600,...or in any of the short and brutish times of ancient war... The world is always ending. Our civilization will end.. differently. I think those who think the world will turn into a Venusian furnace are way over the top. At least it won't do so until the sun comes to the end of its life and expands. Each and every one of us is facing the loss of everything... our own little endtime. It's rough. It always has been. Unless we are retro-romantics.

robot

There have been improvements in the past fifty years in things such as auto and industrial emissions, sewage treatment, landfill management. When I was a child nuclear testing was still going on, asbestos was being used everywhere, DDT and other pesticides were in common use. Same with chloroflourocarbons until recently (freon 12 ect.).
People smoked everywhere. In restaurants, on airplanes. And littered more than they do now.
Whaling was still going on into the sixties out here. Now Grey and Humpback whales are making a dramatic recovery. The same for seals and sea otters that were hunted to near extinction.
Also clearcut logging has changed a great deal in the past thirty years. I saw a show recently that explained that even the destruction of the Amazon rainforest had slowed right down in recent times. Science has come a long way in understanding how ecosystems work and are interconnected.
So I think there are reasons to have a more positive outlook. It depends where you live I suppose.

sndymorn

The world is always ending, and always beginning....

vinlyn

There's a tendency for each generation to think that their "time" is the worst. My grandparents lived through the Great Depression. My father served in WWII in Italy and Germany. I remember the drills where we would crouch under our desk in case an nuclear bomb detonated.

ThailandTom

There have been improvements in the past fifty years in things such as auto and industrial emissions, sewage treatment, landfill management. When I was a child nuclear testing was still going on, asbestos was being used everywhere, DDT and other pesticides were in common use. Same with chloroflourocarbons until recently (freon 12 ect.).
People smoked everywhere. In restaurants, on airplanes. And littered more than they do now.
Whaling was still going on into the sixties out here. Now Grey and Humpback whales are making a dramatic recovery. The same for seals and sea otters that were hunted to near extinction.
Also clearcut logging has changed a great deal in the past thirty years. I saw a show recently that explained that even the destruction of the Amazon rainforest had slowed right down in recent times. Science has come a long way in understanding how ecosystems work and are interconnected.
So I think there are reasons to have a more positive outlook. It depends where you live I suppose.

lol my house I live in has an asbestos roof.. meh owel. But I really do agree with Mountains a whole lot here, it is not being a negative nancy, it is looking at the bigger picture. The more we 'grow' as a race, the more we destory to create.. We are literally screwing things up big time and it is getting out of control, the wheel has been in motion for a while and I don't think we can stop it, there is just too much greed and emphasis on capitalism.

ThailandTom

There's a tendency for each generation to think that their "time" is the worst. My grandparents lived through the Great Depression. My father served in WWII in Italy and Germany. I remember the drills where we would crouch under our desk in case an nuclear bomb detonated.

I have heard you say this once before, but if you look back through history we have never been so harsh on the world, things have never been so bad on a global scale economically speaking. Resources are running out, space to live is running out. Stephen Hawking stated we have 90 years tops before we run out of room and resources at this current rate of consumption.

vinlyn

There's a tendency for each generation to think that their "time" is the worst. My grandparents lived through the Great Depression. My father served in WWII in Italy and Germany. I remember the drills where we would crouch under our desk in case an nuclear bomb detonated.

I have heard you say this once before, but if you look back through history we have never been so harsh on the world, things have never been so bad on a global scale economically speaking. Resources are running out, space to live is running out. Stephen Hawking stated we have 90 years tops before we run out of room and resources at this current rate of consumption.

The things you mention are worth considering, but things have been this bad on a global scale before. The Great Depression was not just an American problem, and there have been many boom and bust periods, some of which were multi-continent. Space is not necessarily running out...although you might think that living in Bangkok. Try driving through New Mexico or Kansas. Resources...that's an issue...particularly fresh water, although I also believe we could desalinize water if we really put the resources into it.

ThailandTom

There's a tendency for each generation to think that their "time" is the worst. My grandparents lived through the Great Depression. My father served in WWII in Italy and Germany. I remember the drills where we would crouch under our desk in case an nuclear bomb detonated.

I have heard you say this once before, but if you look back through history we have never been so harsh on the world, things have never been so bad on a global scale economically speaking. Resources are running out, space to live is running out. Stephen Hawking stated we have 90 years tops before we run out of room and resources at this current rate of consumption.

The things you mention are worth considering, but things have been this bad on a global scale before. The Great Depression was not just an American problem, and there have been many boom and bust periods, some of which were multi-continent. Space is not necessarily running out...although you might think that living in Bangkok. Try driving through New Mexico or Kansas. Resources...that's an issue...particularly fresh water, although I also believe we could desalinize water if we really put the resources into it.

The key phrase I think is 'at the rate we are going'. Mr Hawking calculated and projected the growth of our race and the consumption of resources and gave us 90 years. He could be wrong but to be honest I am going to take his word for it considering his intellect and the amount of free time he has I cannot remember the figures now, but what was the global population say 50 years ago, and then 100 years ago? There is a curve which gets pretty damn steep.

robot

I think a trend is to leave rural areas to find work in cities. It sucks for the economy of these small communities but helps the environment out here and it sure isn't crowded.
For example, the village installed a multi million dollar, modern sewage treatment system to handle the expected growth which hasn't happened. The harbour is much cleaner now.
If you are getting discouraged about the state of the environment, take a cruise up B.C.'s inside passage to Alaska. The amount of unspoiled wilderness is staggering. Flocks of eagles. Herds of whales and seals. Bears and wolves everywhere.
Along the way you will see abandoned towns, mills, mine sites, logging sites, all being reclaimed by nature.

ThailandTom

I think a trend is to leave rural areas to find work in cities. It sucks for the economy of these small communities but helps the environment out here and it sure isn't crowded.
For example, the village installed a multi million dollar, modern sewage treatment system to handle the expected growth which hasn't happened. The harbour is much cleaner now.
If you are getting discouraged about the state of the environment, take a cruise up B.C.'s inside passage to Alaska. The amount of unspoiled wilderness is staggering. Flocks of eagles. Herds of whales and seals. Bears and wolves everywhere.
Along the way you will see abandoned towns, mills, mine sites, logging sites, all being reclaimed by nature.

My neighbouring city to Bristol, Bath has a green belt around it stopping people from building on it. However before I left things started to become construction sites. It is sad and really look at the big picture. We are going to have to adopt a 1 child policy sooner or later, to me that is inevitable. But sure right now there are many a places where the great outdoors can display it's beauty and splendor, I am just seeing that this is decreasing. I posted a link about the Amazon and the native tribes which nobody has commented on. I think that is because it is revolved around DMT, but the tribes really are so angry with the oiling companies who are declaring the rain forest to be setup into blocks and used for their uses. The tribes fight these people and protest, one shaman got stabbed because he was protesting against the oiling companies. All I see is the wheel of capitalism turning and turning creating desaster, depression, attachment and general suffering. Who are the winners?

yildun

hi Here in ireland goverment and banks to thank for the crisis
in the EU

yildun

HI Here in Ireland we have the goverment and Banks to thank for the
crisis in the EU\Ireland each had a hand in every private pie and a finger
in every public tart.
However we are still far better off than many other countries

slainte

yildun

vinlyn

I do have to laugh.

"We" tend to blame the government. Blame the banks. Etc. And they certainly deserve some of the blame.

"We" tend never to remember to blame "we the people".

Floating_Abu

I agree with @vinlyn in that we are all complicit in things. The world, its systems, its practices. In some way, we condone and support the linkages. That is why if there is a real worldwide revolution, it has to start with the human heart - each and every one.

yildun

hi

We the people are not all greedy

Most of greed was in the banks and corrupt goverments.
We the people will however pay one way or the other
for the mess left buy these groups

You can blame whom ever you like
I will blame the guilty

Slainte

Liam

ThailandTom

hi

We the people are not all greedy

Most of greed was in the banks and corrupt goverments.
We the people will however pay one way or the other
for the mess left buy these groups

You can blame whom ever you like
I will blame the guilty

Slainte

Liam

You should also take into account the consumer with their credit cards and loans buying things they can't really pay for.

vinlyn

I agree with @vinlyn in that we are all complicit in things. The world, its systems, its practices. In some way, we condone and support the linkages. That is why if there is a real worldwide revolution, it has to start with the human heart - each and every one.

And it goes down into the smaller realm as well. Many people who took out mortgages to buy a house during the boom period, really couldn't afford to do so. But, lured on by the big banks and lending institutions, they did so anyway.

vinlyn

hi

We the people are not all greedy

Most of greed was in the banks and corrupt goverments.
We the people will however pay one way or the other
for the mess left buy these groups

You can blame whom ever you like
I will blame the guilty

Slainte

Liam

I disagree. The amount of personal credit card debt in the West is astounding. Mortgages on houses that people really couldn't afford, astounding. Buying of cars that were really over the limit of what the individual could afford, astounding.

ThailandTom

hi

We the people are not all greedy

Most of greed was in the banks and corrupt goverments.
We the people will however pay one way or the other
for the mess left buy these groups

You can blame whom ever you like
I will blame the guilty

Slainte

Liam

I disagree. The amount of personal credit card debt in the West is astounding. Mortgages on houses that people really couldn't afford, astounding. Buying of cars that were really over the limit of what the individual could afford, astounding.

Kinda similar to my point hehe

vinlyn

Kinda similar to my point hehe

Yes, I was reading posts in order, posted mine, then came to yours.

ThailandTom

Kinda similar to my point hehe

Yes, I was reading posts in order, posted mine, then came to yours.

No need to explain yourself sir, why does everone think I am being serious today :-/ I am going to have to put some silly face everytime I am not being too serious.