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What do you think of this interpretation of the 4 noble truths and 8 fold path?
zenmyste
Veteran
1. There is suffering in the world. Its inevitable.
2. The cause of suffering is craving, Wanting things which we cannot have or Wishing for something to be different to what it actually is..
3. There is a way to 'ease' our suffering.
4. The way to ease our suffering is simple ''Stop wanting what is not''
and the way to achieve this is ''Acceptance''
(Ive talked alot on here about the 8 fold path and precepts being something which I personally do naturally, Even before I got into Buddhism, Its just something i was taught as a child. (Dont kill, dont steal, dont lie etc etc..) So ive always thought them as a common sense guide to living a 'stress free-ish life' (but it doesnt necessarily bring me freedom)
But i believe 'acceptance is the key to serenity' (not necessarily the 8 fold path) )
Another practice for acceptance is 'letting go'
When we let go of craving, or desire, we can finally accept what is and be free from our mental suffering etc etc..
Any thoughts please?
People have said that the 8 fold path 'is' the acceptance of what is..
If you believe this can you please explain How?
Thanks in adance!
2. The cause of suffering is craving, Wanting things which we cannot have or Wishing for something to be different to what it actually is..
3. There is a way to 'ease' our suffering.
4. The way to ease our suffering is simple ''Stop wanting what is not''
and the way to achieve this is ''Acceptance''
(Ive talked alot on here about the 8 fold path and precepts being something which I personally do naturally, Even before I got into Buddhism, Its just something i was taught as a child. (Dont kill, dont steal, dont lie etc etc..) So ive always thought them as a common sense guide to living a 'stress free-ish life' (but it doesnt necessarily bring me freedom)
But i believe 'acceptance is the key to serenity' (not necessarily the 8 fold path) )
Another practice for acceptance is 'letting go'
When we let go of craving, or desire, we can finally accept what is and be free from our mental suffering etc etc..
Any thoughts please?
People have said that the 8 fold path 'is' the acceptance of what is..
If you believe this can you please explain How?
Thanks in adance!
0
Comments
I believe there is Buddhism-Lite, which is more new agey and this is one interpretation of it which is relax and accept.
Relax and accept is a fine philosophy, and a fine encouragement and I would support it to the tee.
Buddhism as I understand it though is a bit deeper than this, only because it usually takes a lot more effort to get to a genuine state of understanding what letting go is.
There are layers to the practice not evident through books or book stores, but are evident through practice and experience.
This is not meant to be derogatory towards anyone who wishes to use Buddhism as a lifestyle and philosophy, but I am suggesting it does not by any means reach the full power, realisation and depths that are possible through a Buddhist practice.
For example, in relation to suffering, one would have to see it first. Seeing is clearly seeing - it is not suffering. That is just one minor point out of many.
Respectfully,
Abu
That being said, we also add a lot of extra suffering on top of what already occurs by our desire for it to be otherwise. So I don't think your interpretation is wrong, its just not complete.
If you believe this can you please explain How?
Completely surrendering to the inevitable. How?
Unreservedly opening to whatever arises. How?
Close your fist and press really hard. Then open. Notice the difference.
Now do that in all aspects of your mental and bodily experience.
The interpretation is basically ok, but the problem with such interpretations is that you should also define acceptance of what. And attachment to what?
Of course, our attachment to stuff and people is quite clear. But the problem is we are attached to all kinds of things that are not immediately obvious; like thinking, doing, living, sense impressions, happiness, peace, anger, etc.
Therefore, it is not only about ''Stop wanting what is not'', but also about ''Stop wanting what is". For this, the 8-fold path is the only way.
Metta!
Then I believe there are 'many' paths to inner peace. (Not just the 8 fold path)
Peace is to accept what is, right now! Accepting your life, whether good or bad. (This doesn't mean to be LIKE what is..) But to first accept it as 'reality' and then we can 'move on' or 'act'..
If one is only striving for inner peace then I think practising acceptance is a great path..
If one wants to become a fully blown enlightened buddha, then follow the 8 fold path (although I genuinly don't believe the 8 fold path brings peace to oneself) it might bring peace and kindness to others, because we're not stealing and promoting goodness and compassion.. But it doesn't necessarily bring us 'inner peace'
I honestly believe we have to find our 'own' path for that part..
For me, The 8 fold path is just a guide to being a good person..
(And yes it works, I am a good person) but like I said it doesn't bring 'INNER peace'
I suppose i shouldnt have said 'practice acceptance' because maybe we cant practice acceptance.. acceptance is the practice itself.
Buddhism is not just a moral philosophy or do good religion. It is not just about becoming a 'better' person.
It is much, much more than that.
Abu
Also, i didnt say buddhism is 'suppose' to be a do good philosphy..
Read again please, I wrote ''I honestly believe we have to find our 'own' path for that part..
FOR ME, The 8 fold path is just a guide to being a good person..
(And yes it works, I am a good person) but like I said it doesn't bring 'INNER peace'
FOR 'ME'
I didnt say for you did i? I said for 'ME' the 8 fold path is a guide for being good for 'ME'
it doesnt bring me inner peace..
I did not say buddhism is only a do good religion for everyone.
Of course it brings inner peace. What do you think all the teachers have been preaching?
Why cant you seem to understand what i am saying? FOR ''ME'' it doesnt bring inner peace. For me, its a good guide that everyone should follow anyway. My family always have done 'naturally'
But the path doesnt bring ''me'' peace. It just makes me what i am anyway, a good, decent, human being. who likes helping others when i see them in need. i dont lie, i dont steal, i promote goodness, i have compassion etc etc, i do all this (and more) naturally because its just a common sense way to live and get by in life. But it doesnt bring ''ME'' inner peace.
Like i said, i believe we have to find our own path to find inner peace.
Thankyou for that clarification and I am sorry if I have misunderstood you.
I understand what you mean. In some ways to practice is to cultivate doubt and to invite a sometimes difficult examination of oneself.
For many Buddhism is not a quick fix. But for those interested in genuine clarity, Truth and genuine peace of mind the road less/long travelled is well worth the journey for many others.
And by that I mean, it clarifies the questions on self. It clarifies the question on what is genuine inner peace.
I do know it is not an easy journey and I do sympathise and understand - and VERY MUCH respect your view.
As you say we can only say how it is for ourselves.
After many years of practice and some heartache, I can say that the teachings are undeniably true, effective and amazing beyond wonder. But it is not the easiest task or duty, that is true also.
Best wishes,
Abu
Namaste.
We're both seeming to have alot of debates lately. :-)
But i must admit, you probably do know more soley about 'buddhism' as a whole than i do. And im glad it works for you!
You seem to have a pretty steady Buddhist head and practice. Pleased for you!
Best wishes to u also!
I hope you dont mean this in a bad way. I hope you mean you believe there are many paths for many different people?
I am drawn to ZEN. (Not necessarily 'zen-buddhism') But just ZEN-MIND. And also the TAO.
I believe zen and buddhism are kissing cousins, but they never married!
Thanks Abu, i respect your words and thoughts.
Zenmyste.
I completely disagree that it's not for everyone.
i think that not everyone is for Buddhism.
there's a difference.
There but not there.
Important yet trivial.
Small stuff and it's all small stuff.
Give it the vital importance it deserves in that moment, but once that moment has passed, make some tea.
For me, I believe some people would have had zen-mind well before even buddha came along.
Zen is something pretty much indescribable. Once you start trying to explain it, youve lost and it'll all come out laughable, and people will think, 'what the hell is he talking about'
But ill try and describe it my way;
Zen-mind doesnt necessarily 'have' to have buddhism in it. Zen-mind is knowing that 'if your looking at something, and you dont like it, then simply, 'look somewhere else'
For me, zen is an attitude towards life. A way of 'just being'
Some people dont like all this 'just be' talk, but thats becuase they need to experience it like flicking a light on and off.
Its no good just knowing a light switch can turn a light on and off. Unless you actually go into your room, and turn your light on, then turn it off, you wont understand what the difference is..
But hey, i may be wrong. But this is just my own interpretation of what zen-mind is.
Buddhism comes into it because it happened to trip over zen many years ago.
But even if they didnt meet, I believe zen would still exist..
There is a famous story which we all know about a man asking buddha ''what are you, are you a god? and buddha finally said 'i am awake'
but i prefere this interpretation of the famous story; for me this is more ZEN-mind
when buddha was asked
are you a god??.. he said 'no'
are you a angel?.. he said 'no'
are you a guru?.. again buddha said 'no'
well then what are you?
i am simply, just a man..
.....
Now that version for me, is the closest one can decribe what zen is.
"Nibbana here and now" (being at peace what is), is not the end of dukkha, this not the aim of Buddhist practice. Whatever peaceful states will arise, they are all impermanent. Now, I'm not attacking or trying to offend, probably for you it works, but it makes no sense to mold this view into some alternative of the 8-fold path.
Of course, being at peace with what is, is also part of Buddhism, but it is not the end goal.
Metta!
If it ain't broke, why 'fix' it?
The Buddha said he was awake, he didn't have to define what 'awake' means, he showed us how to realise it for ourselves.
Zen teaches me that 'Life is just as it is...'
(some days suffering. Some days peace...
Some days hell, some days heaven.
But listen, im not saying 'i am right' , im only saying this is just my path which i am at peace with.
Perhaps i dont fully want to become enlightened because maybe its not a healthy state.
To complete lose the self, and get rid of ego, perhaps it isnt even capable. (i dont know)
Zen teaches me that enlightenment is whatever you define it to be. If you think its something amazing, higher, powerful and mystical than 'right now', then no wonder you havent reached it.
Ive realized lately (and this site has helped) that people need to ask themselves a few questions before they continue on this path.
1. do you believe in enlightenment?
2. what is enlightenment to you?
3. what are you wanting to get out of buddhism?
I think that people who believe enlightenment is something 'out there' and is something MIND BLOWING, they will never attain it. and therefore will keep suffering even after 50 years of buddhist practice. Because they are chasing something which 'maybe' isnt even real.
Maybe some people are striving for 'something' which is never gonna happen.
And i honestly believe that there are people who practice buddhism just because 'it is them', its just their nature, its just natural, it just makes sense. They are natural Buddhists.. they feel at home when studying it, reading, it, meditating, being around others etc etc.. and some of these people are not necessarily striving for enlightenment, they are just Living life, which just so happens to be the buddhist path.
So for me, it all comes down to this question; 'do i believe there is a state which completely lets someone be Fully Free From ALL Suffering, COMPLETELY?
For me personally, that answer is ''NO''
I dont believe the human-being can be completely free from mental suffering.
I believe ''everything is impermanant - - including enlightenment itself..
*my opinion only*
x
The third noble truth is cessation of suffering.. not its easing. In Zen this non-dukkha has all kinds of names, "kensho" for fancy people, or seeing your "face before you were born' etc.... or best of all IMHO "dropping body and mind" .
This cannot be imagined... but imagine it people try... stubbornly. The joke is it is not a huge feat. It is just a matter of doing the practice, with the guidance of a good teacher and the support of a Sangha. With the whole body and mind...100%. Otherwise there is just endless musing and thinking about it... considering.. maybe... but.. but.. and then... on and on.
"Just as the ocean has but one taste, the taste of salt, so my teachings have but one taste, the taste of freedom." - Buddha
But again: it is not just an attitude - as is commonly thought/imagined. Example one loses something and says mentally to oneself "Oh it's OK I will just let this moment pass" That is an attitude and in that case, new age books are a dime a dozen to help teach such attitudes - or the psychologists' couch or bench.
But Buddhism is much more than this. It teaches the principles of anatta, annica and dukkha, it teaches dependent origination and the source of life and consciousness itself. By teaching though the direction is an intimate experiential insight into this via life, one's own body, thoughts, mind etc. In other words, it teaches much more than a new age attitude or 'just accept'
"The gift of Dharma excels all gifts. The taste of Dharma excels all tastes. The delight in Dharma excels all delights."
And the reason why (some) people will have to practice is because the 'just accept' does not fully shield us from the realities of life. For it to be effective, the practice has to be much deeper than an attitude or a mental thought or imagination.
"Understanding is for knowing how to step aside from an incoming bus, practice is for the bus you never saw coming"
Best wishes,
Abu
Hey buddy
Just so you get your facts straight
The Buddha did not say he was a man, the story was that he said "I am awakened" That is slightly different my friend
As to your above comment, this made me laugh. You are very sweet.
But you have very selective hearing. There have been a thousand examples of people who have achieved this and many more who have come back to tell their story, and yet you believe what you wish to - which is absolutely fine by the way. Most of us do.
But I would just state for the record that awakening to the self is not a loss of self, it is a clarification of self, it is a delight beyond the years or expectations - it is a worldy transcendence that brings joy and depth to our everyday lives. At least I know that this is possible.
Best wishes,
Abu
If you read my post properly i said So if you read it again, correctly, you will see that i 'did' say the famous story says that buddha said 'i am awake'
then i went on to say 'but i prefere another interpretation........
i will quote myself again so you can read it because you seem to have trouble reading my posts properly... he it is again;
can you see where i wrote 'AWAKE'
So again, i dont have to get my facts right, because i actually know the facts;
I only said i prefere a different interpretation.
Please please please start reading the posts properly. (before quoting me and then commenting)
Looks like you have to get ''your'' facts right, not me!
Best wishes,
Zenmyste
But why on earth also would you change a story entirely to FIT your own opinion-judgement. That slants the whole story incorrectly.
I mean, that is just wow to me - changing what is to suit your own reality seems slightly antithetical to Zen mind to put it lightly, and wow, then spreading this interpretation. OK It surprises me but maybe it's not that uncommon in the world. I don't know.
Bows,
Abu
It isnt ''my'' interpretation. and i never said it was.
Its a ZEN interpretation..
Anyway, like i said, ill find it.
I am sorry, I don't mean to jump on your back and I definitely don't need you to question your practice (at all -- please feel free to keep your own opinions as long as you want in fact), but it is a public forum and I do think you state a lot of misconceptions on practice and Buddhism and Zen, so I do comment on those aspects a lot more.
Well wishes,
Abu
It's cool to be uncertain about Buddhism, you probably aren't going to come along and reinvent the whole thing in a few posts on the internet. A lot of clever people have spent a long time discussing this stuff already, they aren't all stuffy idiots just waiting for an iconoclast to cut through the bull and tell it how it is. Not that there isn't sometimes a place for that, but you've got to start off humble and work out what the mold is made of before you can break it.
*sigh*
I just like drinking tea.
good luck with ur practice.
He has many Books on Zen practice. And his interpretation of the story is in his book called 'Nirvana' (zen meditations)
Believe and do as you wish, all is good.
Well wishes,
Abu