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This seems to be the most quoted Sutta online. That popularity could reflect a lot of things.. some maybe not so noble. It can be a perfect cover for being stuck in "I know".. and being averse to deeply bowing.
You mean as opposed to imagining one is doing deep bowing?
As opposed to actually bowing before a teacher.. being chastened, and not coming on like a fount of wisdom...
Well you have certainly displayed it - ask your teacher about it some time too: anonymously if you wish.
Deep bowing can often just be another mask, but truth is far from manifest.
Best wishes, Abu
Abu.. big hug for you... You aspire to teach.. to represent the Dharma. All the power to you. I'm sorry I told you to go ask your teacher a while back.. that was snippy. Now lets drop it..
I am not a fount of wisdom and don't pretend to be... just ask anyone here familiar with my posting history.. Wisdom pose..not. But I can talk some sense.. and do like to poke at our preciousness online sometimes, my own and others.
You just failed to show responsibility for your posts and assertions. It should be noted - that's all.
I am not a fount of wisdom and don't pretend to be...
RichardH quotes:
"That popularity could reflect a lot of things.. some maybe not so noble. It can be a perfect cover for being stuck in "I know".. and being averse to deeply bowing."
"Letting go of the world can mean very different things. Seeing the world as "a meaningless game" is a particular head-space. .. a state of mind... another condition to see and let go of. When "sitting" is it meaningless or meaningful? .. it just is."
"Emptiness is just half of it. There is no thing or non-thing called "Emptiness", there is only Emptiness/Form."
""ordinary" in the ordinary sense.. is immersion, without a clue, in a storyline with "me" as the actor. Where every action... even "zen" "just doing" is a self-conscious production where "I" am both the performer and the audience."
just ask anyone here familiar with my posting history.. Wisdom pose..not.
Just because it's a rougher or less mosaic tone does not mean that it is not trying to do the pose. That's not an offence, that's what this forum roughly is. It's a fine thing this community but trying to think you are better than others because you talk in a different style may not be so accurate - especially given the content and tone IMO
But I can talk some sense.. and do like to poke at our preciousness online sometimes, my own and others.
And that's your self image, and self-view. Hence -- "You mean as opposed to imagining one is doing deep bowing?"
But on the other hand there is a real problem to it when people idolize the teacher.
I agree, and some people have a need to be led, and a tendency to put teachers on a pedestal - both can lead to trouble.
There are 84,000 Dhamma Gates. Each frame is already it in reality. Devotion to a genuine teacher can yield good results, but the key there which is most difficult to discern is -- genuine. Genuine means one who has genuinely penetrated to the same breadth and depths that the Buddha learnt. If one has the good fortune to be in such hands, it can be more useful. But perhaps that is rare, I don't know. Usually, Buddhists look for the initial tell tale signs that are popular in mainstream Buddhist press - but as it takes one to know one, the best way for any Buddhist looking to safeguard their own sanity and trust, is to find a good teacher/group (reputable, established) as much as you can and then -- to unfailingly practice. Practice leads one down the same way as the Buddha and when you are on that track, one can be released much more from the fear of being conned, and enjoy the fruits of teaching. As ozen said, and Ajahn Chah also taught, 'everything is teaching us' But that takes some -- actually a lot, I think -- of practice to actualise.
If one has the good fortune to be in such hands, it can be more useful. But perhaps that is rare, I don't know.
I think it is quite rare in the west, where contact is mostly with people at local groups. And does one ever really know whether if a teacher or tradition is "genuine"? Isn't it all quite subjective?
If one has the good fortune to be in such hands, it can be more useful. But perhaps that is rare, I don't know.
I think it is quite rare in the west, where contact is mostly with people at local groups. And does one ever really know whether if a teacher or tradition is "genuine"? Isn't it all quite subjective?
nods, It could be rare full stop.
As to genuine, that is a really hard one. Is it subjective?
This is a longer topic. Allow me to revert in a moment, p.
As to genuine, that is a really hard one. Is it subjective?
It raises questions like: "How do I know this teacher is enlightened?" "How do I know their approach is really effective?" "How do I know what they're teaching is genuine Buddhdharma?"
abu.. disengage from me. get it? just disengage. illuminate someone else.
Perhaps you could try disengaging from your real problem ?
Good luck.
Just take care of your own practice . I doubt you would carry on like this in sangha in front of a teacher.. This is the bane of Buddhist fora. It is why I quit modding elsewhere.. because there was always another self-ordained teacher taking on a little gig.
Just remember to say "In my opinion" . Because that is all we have here on the internet.. a little "IMHO" goes a long way.
"IMHO" is an open door.. open to two way communication. We all have our crap.. our posings and attachments and so forth.. so lets just not pretend any of us are beyond it, while at the same time doing our best. That all I am trying to say Abu. there is no real ill will here...
It raises questions like: "How do I know this teacher is enlightened?" "How do I know their approach is really effective?" "How do I know what they're teaching is genuine Buddhdharma?"
How do I know this teacher is enlightened.
Difficult. You probably don't know yet - unless you have some genuine understanding yourself -- then all you have to go by are external words, forms and mannerisms. If you have a good practice and deeper insights, you can vet someone from their words already. If not, then that is harder, but one can also rely on one's own instincts and resonance. If you are ripe yourself, there is a better chance that the right words will resonate in you. And we also must make do with what we first have. So we do, we don't like that doubt disable us or stop us from the practice. There are also elements of kamma, of one's own level of understanding. Just as you would have to possess wisdom to identify wisdom, so too do the connections of kamma and Buddhism work. Remember Luang Por? He said once in a talk, approximately, 'People are always trying to figure out if Ajahn Viradhammo and I are enlightened, or whether we are two blokes who haven't quite made it yet. But that is the typical wordly way of looking at things..what we are encouraging is the cultivation of your own awareness and practice'. Sounds like a top bloke to my ears.
You cannot know for sure perhaps, but depending on your tradition, you can practice. I believe that as long as you have good practice guidance, then the road is optimistic.
Which of course leads to the next questions
How do I know their approach is really effective, How do I know what they are teaching is genuine Buddhadharma
You can only know for yourself. The practice insights are based on the same realisations that Gautama had. That is how you know. Unless it is a practice like Tibetan which relies much more heavily on the guru, most practices are quite simple i.e. basic. Zen and Theravada use the 4NT, You do not even need that much belief in the teacher to start with such things Even if Gautama Buddha was here today, we would still doubt unless we had the insights that transcend those aspects of the mind, do you understand? The Buddha left all his instructions, and he left the Way open, so the fault could only now lie with ourselves. I know it seems hard, but I wonder if it is harder not to do it. Maybe yes, maybe no, I cannot answer for everyone else.
Just take care of your own practice . I doubt you would carry on like this in sangha in front of a teacher.. This is the bane of Buddhist fora. It is why I quit modding elsewhere.. because there was always another self-ordained teacher taking on a little gig.
Hi Richard, interesting opinion but this is a Buddhist internet forum and the purpose is to share experiences, perspectives, and understandings - and to use the word format to do so on the internet.
If you do not like your statements to be challenged, then perhaps just say you do not like muddlings interfering with your own words of perceived wisdom for which you have little patience for. You have chosen to throw subtle and not so subtle insults throughout this thread - but as I showed you in the prior post, are your posts that different to what you criticise?
Therefore, denigrating me whilst self-portraying yourself as a humble little Zen guy who is all honest and filled with humility is interesting, but also worthy of your attention. Denigrating others, and elevating self - common but unnecessary
Just remember to say "In my opinion" . Because that is all we have here on the internet.. a little "IMHO" goes a long way.
"IMHO" is an open door.. open to two way communication. We all have our crap.. our posings and attachments and so forth.. so lets just not pretend any of us are beyond it, while at the same time doing our best. That all I am trying to say Abu. there is no real ill will here...
Maybe you could do a NewBuddhist IMHO audit. Your own posts above seem quite certain and not reflective of the very open humility you purport to cherish. Personally, I think it is clear most posters are stating their opinions, views, experiences, knowledge, and beliefs, as is common on any internet bulletin board site so I am happy to engage with people on this basis.
I would prefer the issue to be about points of Buddhist discussion, because that is more interesting. You chose to divert the issues to some personal issues, but that is fine.
Of course everyone is doing their best - some better than others, the rest of your statements are just suppositions.
Just take care of your own practice . I doubt you would carry on like this in sangha in front of a teacher.. This is the bane of Buddhist fora. It is why I quit modding elsewhere.. because there was always another self-ordained teacher taking on a little gig.
Hi Richard, interesting opinion but this is a Buddhist internet forum and the purpose is to share experiences, perspectives, and understandings - and to use the word format to do so on the internet.
If you do not like your statements to be challenged, then perhaps just say you do not like muddlings interfering with your own words of perceived wisdom for which you have little patience for. You have chosen to throw subtle and not so subtle insults throughout this thread - but as I showed you in the prior post, are your posts that different to what you criticise?
Therefore, denigrating me whilst self-portraying yourself as a humble little Zen guy who is all honest and filled with humility is interesting, but also worthy of your attention. Denigrating others, and elevating self - common but unnecessary
Just remember to say "In my opinion" . Because that is all we have here on the internet.. a little "IMHO" goes a long way.
"IMHO" is an open door.. open to two way communication. We all have our crap.. our posings and attachments and so forth.. so lets just not pretend any of us are beyond it, while at the same time doing our best. That all I am trying to say Abu. there is no real ill will here...
Maybe you could do a NewBuddhist IMHO audit. Your own posts above seem quite certain and not reflective of the very open humility you purport to cherish. Personally, I think it is clear most posters are stating their opinions, views, experiences, knowledge, and beliefs, as is common on any internet bulletin board site so I am happy to engage with people on this basis.
I would prefer the issue to be about points of Buddhist discussion, because that is more interesting. You chose to divert the issues to some personal issues, but that is fine.
Of course everyone is doing their best - some better than others, the rest of your statements are just suppositions.
Best wishes, Abu
That comment I made to you about going to a teacher.. it ate at you for days ... until you had to say it back. it ate at you.. for days. Right now this is eating at you...
. I do not respect you. i've seen you post for years and think you are an unbalanced fraud. :screwy: I don't even care about saying this on this forum and being censured.. ... and banned. There are some nice folks here.. but it isn't worth it.
....and this is the thread... a thread about trust and teachers.. pretend teachers, real teachers, would be teachers, self oradained teachers.. This is the thread. I hope people go and find real teachers and not take the word of opinionated people online. If I have anything worthwhile to say.
That comment I made to you about going to a teacher.. it ate at you for days ... until you had to say it back. it ate at you.. for days. Right now this is eating at you...
. I do not respect you. i've seen you post for years and think you are an unbalanced fraud. :screwy: I don't even care about saying this on this forum and being censured.. ... and banned. There are some nice folks here.. but it isn't worth it.
lol, thanks, Richard, for your comments about me, I much prefer transparency so it is good you came out at last saying what you feel rather than the passive-aggressive insults feined through the day
That all I am trying to say Abu. there is no real ill will here...
No, it did not eat at me for days, it was just clear to me that you never acknowledged your claims when they were proven to be wrong. I think responsibility and acknowledging mistakes is important - which is why I pointed it out to you.
Your assumptions are interesting - so again you mispresume this is eating away at me, as you mispresume a lot of things.
However, please be clear that your reactions - which are getting increasingly personal and tragic - are based on a systematic reaction of posts which challenge you. Your reactions are informative, and interesting. Which is why I made the initial post a lot of peoples' self opinions are just that.
I am glad you could be a bit more honest this time, Richard.
Good luck to you and I am sure you will not get banned, after all, you are a treasured part of this community.
....and this is the thread... a thread about trust and teachers.. pretend teachers, real teachers, would be teachers, self oradained teachers.. This is the thread. I hope people go and find real teachers and not take the word of opinionated people online. If I have anything worthwhile to say.
Whilst I respect you have the right to your own views and opinions, I have never said I am a teacher nor purported to be. I share my experiences and views, as does everyone on here.
That you have chosen to make me the target for your hatred and ill will, is just a reflection of where you are, because there are a thousand Floating_Abus on this forum
Your judgement is respected, but I would not take what you say as fact, nor as the ultimate truth. What you have shown to not like is where you get challenged. You seem to be unable to respond to the points, but instead revert to personal attacks and hatred.
Which is a pity, but something that I am familiar with.
People learn where they can, sometimes they will take good advice, sometimes not. As a friend once said to me, you would first have to recognise the value of a $5 bill before picking it up, so the resonance is in the reflection.
Being opinionated is what you also are, but I would add that being certain of one element or another does not mean that person is wrong by itself - per se. I am not a teacher as you know, but most teachers seem pretty certain in their guidance. And if they are genuine, then that is a good thing -- because they know the Dharma, they know through personal experience and a lot of darn hard work. Even the Buddha was an expert in his field and this did not make him a problem IMO. Of course there are the counter cases so that is why I am saying this is not the criteria by itself.
So the slant of your post, I feel, was slightly misleading. People should look to teachers of genuine standing, practice and Dhamma expertise, if they are able to discern this for themself. That is where the true value of guidance lies - so I hope your current judgement does not cloud your well meaning advice to others.
Best wishes, and hopefully there is no ill will, ultimately.
No not treasured... .. No ill will either... but, sorry no respect. maybe if we met in person.. but no.
bye.
An unbalanced fraud is usually not a measure of good will, but if there is poison, it is better to acknowledge it... - That's just my view and experience though, but your mileage may vary.
For the record, I don't care if you respect me or not. I don't care one inch about that.
But I do hope you stay, because I think this community is fundamentally good and has a lot of good, decent, well meaning people which is a boon for everyone - and I am sure many people enjoy your wonderful sharings.
Back to the topic for a moment. Interesting that we could never suggest that a Buddhist teacher end their sentences with IMHO, because they don't teach opinions. It's not the Three Noble Opinions, it's the Three Noble Truths.
So I think when people to tell others to end their sentences with IMHO they are basically telling them what their rank is, and not to speak above their pay grade, so to speak. This is just my opinion of course.
Sorry, I missed your question in the other stuff. "Deeply bowing" just means being before a teacher and deeply bowing.. on your knees.. with your forehead down to the floor.. In Theravada Buddhism, a lay person does that before the ordained Sangha. It is also (depending on the tradition) part of the going for interview in Zen. When you take the precepts it can involve many prostrations.. When my wife and I took the precepts it involved 500 full body prostrations.. standing up... then down, forehead to the floor.. palms up. In some traditions it is a lot more. The teacher described it as being like water flowing down to the lowest point. So that is a deep bow. Not just physically but in a lot of ways.
That's all I meant by "deep bows". It ain't everyone's cup of tea... and some folk don't see any point at all. There is a big subject here... it is really worth talking about IMHO..
...and yes.. on another topic there is a difference between say, my opinion, and the engaged teaching of actual ordained teachers... Agree.. disagree.. We got our opinions.
I guess that I was asking about all those other ways. I know what a deep bow is physically. But anyway, that was only to help clarify the more curious claim of yours, that some people "cover" or hide their aversion to deep bowing. I still don't understand why anyone would do that. Have you know people who try to cover their aversion to deep bowing because it is shameful to them or something? It seems like their teacher could help them with that problem so to hide it would seem counter productive.
I used to have an aversion to deep bowing. As my gratitude to the teachers and teachings increased naturally I took refuge in bowing as an expression of reliance on Buddhism in a live by die by way.
I used to have an aversion to deep bowing. As my gratitude to the teachers and teachings increased naturally I took refuge in bowing as an expression of reliance on Buddhism in a live by die by way.
Did you ever try to hide that aversion from anyone, Jeffrey?
@ozen, yes I did try to hide the aversion. The monk read the vibe and told a story I forget what, but it was a story related to someone who learned to bow. Something like the thousandth bow comes only because of the first.
Hiding was a mental event. By hiding I meant that I hated and resented bowing but I did it, but did it anyways to fit in. I think the monk picked up on my body language. I had some anger at worshiping God for some reason and that transferred over. Now I am hopeful of God and heaven but don't study the Bible and am 100% Buddhist, kind of contrary.
The first time I was going to "deeply bow" in an interview with a Zen teacher I was apprehensive of if. And what actually didn't help was that the teacher waved it off the first couple of meetings, like he was letting me get used to the idea or something. But that seemed to just make it more of an issue by giving it more attention. It was no big deal at all though, just part of the ritual.
I didn't try to hide my apprehension though. Frankly I'm not sure how I would have done that. In fact I talked it over with my wife, so at least I didn't try to hide it from her.
Hiding was a mental event. By hiding I meant that I hated and resented bowing but I did it, but did it anyways to fit in. I think the monk picked up on my body language. I had some anger at worshiping God for some reason and that transferred over. Now I am hopeful of God and heaven but don't study the Bible and am 100% Buddhist, kind of contrary.
"Monks, be islands unto yourselves,[1] be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other. Those who are islands unto themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things:[2] 'What is the source of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair? How do they arise?' [What is their origin?]
"Here, monks, the uninstructed worldling [continued as in SN 22.7.] Change occurs in this man's body, and it becomes different. On account of this change and difference, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair arise. [Similarly with 'feelings,' 'perceptions,' 'mental formations,' 'consciousness'].
"But seeing[3] the body's impermanence, its change-ability, its waning,[4] its ceasing, he says 'formerly as now, all bodies were impermanent and unsatisfactory, and subject to change.' Thus, seeing this as it really is, with perfect insight, he abandons all sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not worried at their abandonment, but unworried lives at ease, and thus living at ease he is said to be 'assuredly delivered.'"[5] [Similarly with 'feelings,' 'perceptions,' 'mental formations,' 'consciousness'].
Attadiipaa Sutta: An Island to Oneself
[Yo so svākkhāto] bhagavatā dhammo, The Dhamma well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting all to come & see,
Opanayiko paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhi: leading inward, to be seen by the wise for themselves:
Tam-ahaṃ dhammaṃ abhipūjayāmi, Tam-ahaṃ dhammaṃ sirasā namāmi. I worship most highly that Dhamma, To that Dhamma I bow my head down. (BOW DOWN)
Part of "deeply bowing" or prostrating is a form of homage, a way to show respect and appreciation. It is a good way to practice humility and lower our conceit. Our conceit (views) is like the water that already exists in our cup. How would we ever taste anything different if our cup is always full? When we bow, we are making room in our cup.
[The Buddha:]
"Not to associate with the foolish,[5] but to associate with the wise; and to honor those who are worthy of honor — this is the greatest blessing.
To have much learning, to be skillful in handicraft,[8] well-trained in discipline,[9] and to be of good speech[10] — this is the greatest blessing.
To be generous in giving, to be righteous in conduct,[11] to help one's relatives, and to be blameless in action — this is the greatest blessing.
To be respectful,[13] humble, contented and grateful; and to listen to the Dhamma on due occasions[14] — this is the greatest blessing.
To be patient and obedient, to associate with monks and to have religious discussions on due occasions — this is the greatest blessing.
Self-restraint,[15] a holy and chaste life, the perception of the Noble Truths and the realisation of Nibbana — this is the greatest blessing.
Do you prefer to place your faith in a person, or an idealogy? Placing faith in a person, is easy; you can see, feel, and hear them. But is this person living the faith as heshe teach it? It's easy to see the substance in a real person we can see; but live a faith of one who has passed on to higher realms as the buddha and saints, gets hard to do. Questions we have could only be asnwere in our hearts; where as from a person standing before us, is very tantalizing to our needs of the hear and now.
So I think when people to tell others to end their sentences with IMHO they are basically telling them what their rank is, and not to speak above their pay grade, so to speak.
Yes, it can be like that. For me opinions are just opinions, and adding the "humble" in IMHO is rather pointless.
Back to the topic for a moment. Interesting that we could never suggest that a Buddhist teacher end their sentences with IMHO, because they don't teach opinions. It's not the Three Noble Opinions, it's the Three Noble Truths.
So I think when people to tell others to end their sentences with IMHO they are basically telling them what their rank is, and not to speak above their pay grade, so to speak. This is just my opinion of course.
I saw a lot of hypocrisy (do as I say, when I want it - not as I do), and the facade of ill will, desperately covered for a while. At least Buddhists should try to be honest - preferably to themself first, and to take responsibility when they make incorrect statements, rather than attacking people and then pretending nothing had ever happened.
Which is why I has said there is the situation of imagining one is doing deep bowing. Deep bowing to me implies a genuine release of self i.e. that is what the physical action should genuinely reflect in a Zen student. The physical movement is the easy part. For one who just does the physical act, without genuinely releasing the self, that is just another pose. And we as posers will always be poor students, no matter how shiny our veneer, or how many years we have practiced.
And a genuine teacher, since that is the topic, is one who knows and lives this fully, because that is the genuine release and peace of a Buddha/Buddhist follower. Anyone can mime, and a thousand people can memorise and analyse sutras, but the true value is inward and not so easily discernable tp a fellow man - although we are happy to have many such good friends in this world still. But perhaps not yet enough.
- Hence 'as opposed to imaginging one is doing deep bowing'.
Sorry if that offends anyone, but this is how I see things.
But is this person living the faith as heshe teach it? It's easy to see the substance in a real person we can see; but live a faith of one who has passed on to higher realms as the buddha and saints, gets hard to do. Questions we have could only be asnwere in our hearts; where as from a person standing before us, is very tantalizing to our needs of the hear and now.
And that's the ultimate question, which is why a good method is to find the person as best as you can see for now, follow and learn, practice like crazy for yourself, and also -- stay with the treasured and clear Sutras - Diamond/Heart/Lankavatara/Vimalakatri etc. Any teacher who tells you the ultimate answer, or does not point to your own responsibility and practice, who does not encourage your practice, cannot be a genuine teacher. Stay away from all these controversy groups like NKT, Diamond Way, Michael Roach, Dai Bozatsu, Zen Studies Society. We have enough to work with without getting mired in theirs. And for yourself, don't think you have reached the end, there are a lot and a lot of layers yet to be uncovered.
As you practice, if your practice blossoms, then you will be much more able to discern that the teacher you see or have is not just doing the act-talk but can live the spirit. You see, because then the gem would have already taken place in you -- and that is the most precious, valuable part of our practice. The lighting of a thousand lamps is the realm of the true Dharma. Inwardly they work. And keep such sutras, teachings as a guide. See that there is always more to learn, always. Suffering will also prod you if you are lost, lol, such is its role in our lives and practice (sigh)
But also by the time you are here, the road will also come up to meet you and you will feel much more confident of how to go forward, or at least not worry so much about being conned like we all do at the beginning and middle stages.
No, Abu is not perfect, smiles, but I can certainly share my experience and views.
I guess that I was asking about all those other ways. I know what a deep bow is physically. But anyway, that was only to help clarify the more curious claim of yours, that some people "cover" or hide their aversion to deep bowing. I still don't understand why anyone would do that. Have you know people who try to cover their aversion to deep bowing because it is shameful to them or something? It seems like their teacher could help them with that problem so to hide it would seem counter productive.
It is very common to see and talk to people who are averse to bowing before a teacher, before what the ordained Sangha represents. I've seen it over and over again. It is almost to be expected. There is a lot of aversion to it, I was averse to it. Why bow down to this all-too-human teacher just because of the Robes? Bowing down before this imperfect person, is putting down a burden, it is being naked, it is taking off the armor. It is putting down "me and my way" and entering a larger stream... and being open to teaching. When I said the Kalama sutta can also be used as a "cover", I meant it can be read as ..." Look, the Buddha says I KNOW BEST", and therefore all my aversions and defensive cleverness, all my cynicism lingering from being burned by organized religion, all my doubts.... seem supported by scripture. I'm not talking about "Great Doubt".. just mundane clogged-up doubt and defensive intelligence.
IMHO. or if "humble opinion" is too much of an artifice... just opinion. But, it isn't just my opinion that aversion to bowing, and ritual..especially devotional ritual, is common among new people, and some long-time Buddhists too.
I guess that I was asking about all those other ways. I know what a deep bow is physically. But anyway, that was only to help clarify the more curious claim of yours, that some people "cover" or hide their aversion to deep bowing. I still don't understand why anyone would do that. Have you know people who try to cover their aversion to deep bowing because it is shameful to them or something? It seems like their teacher could help them with that problem so to hide it would seem counter productive.
It is very common to see and talk to people who are averse to bowing before a teacher, before what the ordained Sangha represents. I've seen it over and over again. It is almost to be expected. There is a lot of aversion to it, I was averse to it. Why bow down to this all-too-human teacher just because of the Robes? Bowing down before this imperfect person, is putting down a burden, it is being naked, it is taking off the armor. It is putting down "me and my way" and entering a larger stream... and being open to teaching. When I said the Kalama sutta can also be used as a "cover", I meant it can be read as ..." Look, the Buddha says I KNOW BEST", and therefore all my aversions and defensive cleverness, all my cynicism lingering from being burned by organized religion, all my doubts.... seem supported by scripture. I'm not talking about "Great Doubt".. just mundane clogged-up doubt and defensive intelligence.
IMHO. or if "humble opinion" is too much of an artifice... just opinion. But, it isn't just my opinion that aversion to bowing, and ritual..especially devotional ritual, is common among new people, and some long-time Buddhists too.
If it's that common for people to be adverse to bowing at the sanghas you practiced with, well, maybe that says more about the sanghas you've practiced with. That certainly has not been my experience.
The Sanghas I have practiced with are fine, ordinary sanghas.... Theravadin (forest sangha traditions) 20+ years. Zen (Son) about 7 years, and several others for lesser periods, including Kwan Um, recently. My time with the Lay Forest Sangha involved "facilitating" sittings, open to the public, every Sunday 10am -12pm for about 15 years. This included basic sitting instruction, conducting ritual, keeping time, and facilitating discussion afterword. The issue of new people being averse to ritual and devotional practice was always coming up... almost weekly. That is my experience. If you have had a different experience that's fine too.
Let me see if I've got this straight. New comers go to your sangha and talk openly about their aversion to bowing or ritual. That sounds great to me. Anyone that open, self aware and self disclosing should make a really good Zen student.
What exactly is the problem with this? Is it an overshare or something?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Why is this a problem for you @ozen? I suggest you let it be and focus on your own teacher and practice. OK?
But, it isn't just my opinion that aversion to bowing, and ritual..especially devotional ritual, is common among new people, and some long-time Buddhists too.
Yes, that's been my experience too. But on the other hand should we bow merely because of peer pressure or because that's what expected at a particular group?
You're free to bow or not bow - I don't believe most (any?) dharma centers force anyone to bow.
Physical prostrations, though, aside from the purpose of showing thanks to the teacher for the teaching he/she is about to give (often for free), and in addition to purifying negative karma, also happen to be wonderful for health. I sometimes wonder if full prostrations came about so that monks and nuns who spend a great deal of time sitting would also be moving their bodies around enough to be healthy!
But, it isn't just my opinion that aversion to bowing, and ritual..especially devotional ritual, is common among new people, and some long-time Buddhists too.
Yes, that's been my experience too. But on the other hand should we bow merely because of peer pressure or because that's what expected at a particular group?
Going along with peer pressure isn't appropriate. In the situation with the lay Forest Sangha group there was a lot of discussion at board meetings, and casually, about the discomfort many new people had with devotional practice.. and the "religious" qualities in general. Many people would say they were investigating Buddhism because it was ...variously.. "a philosophy", "a spiritual path", a way of "wellbeing".. etc. anything but a "religion" with structures and rituals, and, especially, bowing down. We tried accommodation.. whittling down chanting and keeping the shrine very simple and so forth, but still that was too much for some folks. Then we realized that we were bowing to a different kind of peer pressure. The views and feelings behind that pressure, though honest, were mostly aversions and negative associations with "church". That can be talked about, but should not determine how the Sangha operates. So, the ritual.. candles, opening and closing chants , bowing, taking refuge... all that came back, and people were told, basically, "It is what it is", No one was forced to do anything, and new people were told they could just sit quietly and not participate in those aspects . We could talk about it if they wish. explain its value, but if they really objected, then maybe the Sangha was just not for them...
Comments
Thinking out loud... maybe I'm applying too much reason and where it doesn't belong.
I am not a fount of wisdom and don't pretend to be... just ask anyone here familiar with my posting history.. Wisdom pose..not. But I can talk some sense.. and do like to poke at our preciousness online sometimes, my own and others.
"That popularity could reflect a lot of things.. some maybe not so noble. It can be a perfect cover for being stuck in "I know".. and being averse to deeply bowing."
"Letting go of the world can mean very different things. Seeing the world as "a meaningless game" is a particular head-space. .. a state of mind... another condition to see and let go of. When "sitting" is it meaningless or meaningful? .. it just is."
"Emptiness is just half of it. There is no thing or non-thing called "Emptiness", there is only Emptiness/Form."
""ordinary" in the ordinary sense.. is immersion, without a clue, in a storyline with "me" as the actor. Where every action... even "zen" "just doing" is a self-conscious production where "I" am both the performer and the audience."
Just because it's a rougher or less mosaic tone does not mean that it is not trying to do the pose. That's not an offence, that's what this forum roughly is. It's a fine thing this community but trying to think you are better than others because you talk in a different style may not be so accurate - especially given the content and tone IMO And that's your self image, and self-view. Hence -- "You mean as opposed to imagining one is doing deep bowing?"
Best wishes,
Abu
Devotion to a genuine teacher can yield good results, but the key there which is most difficult to discern is -- genuine. Genuine means one who has genuinely penetrated to the same breadth and depths that the Buddha learnt. If one has the good fortune to be in such hands, it can be more useful. But perhaps that is rare, I don't know. Usually, Buddhists look for the initial tell tale signs that are popular in mainstream Buddhist press - but as it takes one to know one, the best way for any Buddhist looking to safeguard their own sanity and trust, is to find a good teacher/group (reputable, established) as much as you can and then -- to unfailingly practice. Practice leads one down the same way as the Buddha and when you are on that track, one can be released much more from the fear of being conned, and enjoy the fruits of teaching. As ozen said, and Ajahn Chah also taught, 'everything is teaching us' But that takes some -- actually a lot, I think -- of practice to actualise.
FWIW.
Best wishes,
Abu
Good luck.
As to genuine, that is a really hard one.
Is it subjective?
This is a longer topic. Allow me to revert in a moment, p.
Well wishes,
Abu
I am just eating at the moment so that is why I will answer in a sec :cool:
Just remember to say "In my opinion" . Because that is all we have here on the internet.. a little "IMHO" goes a long way.
"IMHO" is an open door.. open to two way communication. We all have our crap.. our posings and attachments and so forth.. so lets just not pretend any of us are beyond it, while at the same time doing our best. That all I am trying to say Abu. there is no real ill will here...
How do I know this teacher is enlightened.
Difficult. You probably don't know yet - unless you have some genuine understanding yourself -- then all you have to go by are external words, forms and mannerisms. If you have a good practice and deeper insights, you can vet someone from their words already. If not, then that is harder, but one can also rely on one's own instincts and resonance. If you are ripe yourself, there is a better chance that the right words will resonate in you. And we also must make do with what we first have. So we do, we don't like that doubt disable us or stop us from the practice. There are also elements of kamma, of one's own level of understanding. Just as you would have to possess wisdom to identify wisdom, so too do the connections of kamma and Buddhism work. Remember Luang Por? He said once in a talk, approximately, 'People are always trying to figure out if Ajahn Viradhammo and I are enlightened, or whether we are two blokes who haven't quite made it yet. But that is the typical wordly way of looking at things..what we are encouraging is the cultivation of your own awareness and practice'. Sounds like a top bloke to my ears.
You cannot know for sure perhaps, but depending on your tradition, you can practice. I believe that as long as you have good practice guidance, then the road is optimistic.
Which of course leads to the next questions
How do I know their approach is really effective, How do I know what they are teaching is genuine Buddhadharma
You can only know for yourself. The practice insights are based on the same realisations that Gautama had. That is how you know. Unless it is a practice like Tibetan which relies much more heavily on the guru, most practices are quite simple i.e. basic. Zen and Theravada use the 4NT, You do not even need that much belief in the teacher to start with such things
Just some thoughts.
Best wishes,
Abu
If you do not like your statements to be challenged, then perhaps just say you do not like muddlings interfering with your own words of perceived wisdom for which you have little patience for.
Therefore, denigrating me whilst self-portraying yourself as a humble little Zen guy who is all honest and filled with humility is interesting, but also worthy of your attention. Denigrating others, and elevating self - common but unnecessary
I would prefer the issue to be about points of Buddhist discussion, because that is more interesting. You chose to divert the issues to some personal issues, but that is fine.
Of course everyone is doing their best - some better than others, the rest of your statements are just suppositions.
Best wishes,
Abu
Abu
. I do not respect you. i've seen you post for years and think you are an unbalanced fraud. :screwy: I don't even care about saying this on this forum and being censured.. ... and banned. There are some nice folks here.. but it isn't worth it.
....and this is the thread... a thread about trust and teachers.. pretend teachers, real teachers, would be teachers, self oradained teachers.. This is the thread. I hope people go and find real teachers and not take the word of opinionated people online. If I have anything worthwhile to say.
Your assumptions are interesting - so again you mispresume this is eating away at me, as you mispresume a lot of things.
However, please be clear that your reactions - which are getting increasingly personal and tragic - are based on a systematic reaction of posts which challenge you. Your reactions are informative, and interesting. Which is why I made the initial post a lot of peoples' self opinions are just that.
I am glad you could be a bit more honest this time, Richard.
Good luck to you and I am sure you will not get banned, after all, you are a treasured part of this community.
Abu
bye.
Whilst I respect you have the right to your own views and opinions, I have never said I am a teacher nor purported to be. I share my experiences and views, as does everyone on here.
That you have chosen to make me the target for your hatred and ill will, is just a reflection of where you are, because there are a thousand Floating_Abus on this forum
Your judgement is respected, but I would not take what you say as fact, nor as the ultimate truth. What you have shown to not like is where you get challenged. You seem to be unable to respond to the points, but instead revert to personal attacks and hatred.
Which is a pity, but something that I am familiar with.
People learn where they can, sometimes they will take good advice, sometimes not. As a friend once said to me, you would first have to recognise the value of a $5 bill before picking it up, so the resonance is in the reflection.
Being opinionated is what you also are, but I would add that being certain of one element or another does not mean that person is wrong by itself - per se. I am not a teacher as you know, but most teachers seem pretty certain in their guidance. And if they are genuine, then that is a good thing -- because they know the Dharma, they know through personal experience and a lot of darn hard work. Even the Buddha was an expert in his field and this did not make him a problem IMO. Of course there are the counter cases so that is why I am saying this is not the criteria by itself.
So the slant of your post, I feel, was slightly misleading. People should look to teachers of genuine standing, practice and Dhamma expertise, if they are able to discern this for themself. That is where the true value of guidance lies - so I hope your current judgement does not cloud your well meaning advice to others.
Best wishes, and hopefully there is no ill will, ultimately.
Abu
For the record, I don't care if you respect me or not. I don't care one inch about that.
But I do hope you stay, because I think this community is fundamentally good and has a lot of good, decent, well meaning people which is a boon for everyone - and I am sure many people enjoy your wonderful sharings.
Best wishes, and good luck.
Abu
So I think when people to tell others to end their sentences with IMHO they are basically telling them what their rank is, and not to speak above their pay grade, so to speak. This is just my opinion of course.
(IMHO)
Sorry, I missed your question in the other stuff. "Deeply bowing" just means being before a teacher and deeply bowing.. on your knees.. with your forehead down to the floor.. In Theravada Buddhism, a lay person does that before the ordained Sangha. It is also (depending on the tradition) part of the going for interview in Zen. When you take the precepts it can involve many prostrations.. When my wife and I took the precepts it involved 500 full body prostrations.. standing up... then down, forehead to the floor.. palms up. In some traditions it is a lot more. The teacher described it as being like water flowing down to the lowest point. So that is a deep bow. Not just physically but in a lot of ways.
That's all I meant by "deep bows". It ain't everyone's cup of tea... and some folk don't see any point at all. There is a big subject here... it is really worth talking about IMHO..
...and yes.. on another topic there is a difference between say, my opinion, and the engaged teaching of actual ordained teachers... Agree.. disagree.. We got our opinions.
I didn't try to hide my apprehension though. Frankly I'm not sure how I would have done that. In fact I talked it over with my wife, so at least I didn't try to hide it from her.
[The Buddha:]
"Not to associate with the foolish,[5] but to associate with the wise; and to honor those who are worthy of honor — this is the greatest blessing.
To have much learning, to be skillful in handicraft,[8] well-trained in discipline,[9] and to be of good speech[10] — this is the greatest blessing.
To be generous in giving, to be righteous in conduct,[11] to help one's relatives, and to be blameless in action — this is the greatest blessing.
To be respectful,[13] humble, contented and grateful; and to listen to the Dhamma on due occasions[14] — this is the greatest blessing.
To be patient and obedient, to associate with monks and to have religious discussions on due occasions — this is the greatest blessing.
Self-restraint,[15] a holy and chaste life, the perception of the Noble Truths and the realisation of Nibbana — this is the greatest blessing.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/khp/khp.5.nara.html
Blessings
Which is why I has said there is the situation of imagining one is doing deep bowing. Deep bowing to me implies a genuine release of self i.e. that is what the physical action should genuinely reflect in a Zen student. The physical movement is the easy part. For one who just does the physical act, without genuinely releasing the self, that is just another pose. And we as posers will always be poor students, no matter how shiny our veneer, or how many years we have practiced.
And a genuine teacher, since that is the topic, is one who knows and lives this fully, because that is the genuine release and peace of a Buddha/Buddhist follower. Anyone can mime, and a thousand people can memorise and analyse sutras, but the true value is inward and not so easily discernable tp a fellow man - although we are happy to have many such good friends in this world still. But perhaps not yet enough.
- Hence 'as opposed to imaginging one is doing deep bowing'.
Sorry if that offends anyone, but this is how I see things.
Abu
But why pander to ego? We are all adults :cool:
Thanks for the laugh, mate
As you practice, if your practice blossoms, then you will be much more able to discern that the teacher you see or have is not just doing the act-talk but can live the spirit. You see, because then the gem would have already taken place in you -- and that is the most precious, valuable part of our practice. The lighting of a thousand lamps is the realm of the true Dharma. Inwardly they work. And keep such sutras, teachings as a guide. See that there is always more to learn, always. Suffering will also prod you if you are lost, lol, such is its role in our lives and practice (sigh)
But also by the time you are here, the road will also come up to meet you and you will feel much more confident of how to go forward, or at least not worry so much about being conned like we all do at the beginning and middle stages.
No, Abu is not perfect, smiles, but I can certainly share my experience and views.
Best wishes.
IMHO. or if "humble opinion" is too much of an artifice... just opinion. But, it isn't just my opinion that aversion to bowing, and ritual..especially devotional ritual, is common among new people, and some long-time Buddhists too.
What exactly is the problem with this? Is it an overshare or something?
I suggest you let it be and focus on your own teacher and practice.
OK?
Thanks.
Physical prostrations, though, aside from the purpose of showing thanks to the teacher for the teaching he/she is about to give (often for free), and in addition to purifying negative karma, also happen to be wonderful for health. I sometimes wonder if full prostrations came about so that monks and nuns who spend a great deal of time sitting would also be moving their bodies around enough to be healthy!