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During WWII many USA industries grew rich by trading with the nazis prior to the USA entering that war. Multinational corporations grow fat and win no matter who "wins" a war.
This does not change that many fight in what they believe is a good vs evil battle, in WWII or now. No matter who grows richer from it.
I don't remember the name of the british diplomat that many believe helped, through appeasement, Hitler in becoming stronger and more able to carry out his crazy notions.
Sounds something like Neville Chamberlain.
The question of isolationism or overseas adventurism is one that has been long debated in the US, mainly since 1900.
I struggle with the Atanatiya Sutta and Ahina Sutta as compared to the other reasonable concepts of Buddhism. Are there actually actions,meditions, beliefs that can keep me safe from brigands or snake bite?
Wouldn't it be wonderful if they (the old guys) held a war and nobody came was a thought from my old Yippy days (not hippy). A problem I see with that now is that both sides would have to stop thier killing and conquest, not just one side.
Is the killing of a one ever justified? Is the slaughter of other sentient beings ever justified? (animals) I dont know, but I am grateful to those who defend me and provide me with food.
I think some of the comments regarding "the US being a totalitarian government", "recruiters lying", and "Fahr 9/11 being an unbiased view of how things really are" needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
I wouldn't say that M. Moore's movie was outright treason - because he has a right to free speech - but we must realize it's 1) a movie 2) one person's perception 3) one person's bias.
There are ills all over the world that we are dealing with and I don't believe they can be solved by some of the suggestions provided in this thread.
-bf
Hey, BF.
I wish I had the energy to post some of the many suggestions from the Dalai Lama concerning modern world affairs, war and it's consequences and the many, many, alternatives to war in today's increasingly interdependent world.
If anyone genuinely wants to understand that there are alternatives to war, no matter what we're being told by politicians or multi-national corporations, please read Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh, HHDL or the thousands of other peace activists who write from years and years of personal experience. TNH served as chair of the Buddhist Peace Delegation to the Paris Peace Talks during the Vietnam war and the Dalai Lama was awarded The Nobel Peace Prize.
There are ills all over the world that we are dealing with and I don't believe they can be solved by some of the suggestions provided in this thread.
No, maybe we can't solve them but we can certainly read the words of those who may be our only hope in solving them.
i recogn we should have had a cage match between bush and saddam and the looser resign's from office.. lol that would have solved everything.. maybe it could have been a tag match with blair and bush vs saddam and one of his son's or generals
I wish I had the energy to post some of the many suggestions from the Dalai Lama concerning modern world affairs, war and it's consequences and the many, many, alternatives to war in today's increasingly interdependent world.
If anyone genuinely wants to understand that there are alternatives to war, no matter what we're being told by politicians or multi-national corporations, please read Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh, HHDL or the thousands of other peace activists who write from years and years of personal experience. TNH served as chair of the Buddhist Peace Delegation to the Paris Peace Talks during the Vietnam war and the Dalai Lama was awarded The Nobel Peace Prize.
No, maybe we can't solve them but we can certainly read the words of those who may be our only hope in solving them.
Dearest Punkin,
I understand what you are saying. And in a Utopian world (in my humble opinion) yes!, these things can work.
But, this isn't a Utopian world and, unfortunately (again... IMHO), TNH has wonderful thoughts and ideas - but all of them are not realistic.
I know I'm going to get everyone's dander up by saying this but...
People go around saying, "All you have to do is love everyone and peace will magically fall from the sky. We'll live under rainbows and the world will be right."
That's almost like saying, "I love hungry tigers. I want them to become vegetarians because eating all that meat is causing them too much negative energy. I'm going to go over there and show him all my love and this bowl of rice."
Which is the last thing they ever see while the tiger spends the next couple of days passing their jeans and tennis shoes.
There is an old parable I'd like to share:
The Scorpion and the Frog
One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.
The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.
Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.
"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"
"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.
"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"
Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"
"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"
"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.
"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"
So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.
Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.
"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"
The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.
"I could not help myself. It is my nature."
Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.
Explain Buddha's wisdom to Hitler or Stalin or Pinochet or Pol Pot or... need I go on?
Many people tried alternatives to these killers brand of government - and died.
So - I can't sit here and live in the delusion that by showing love and compassion everything will be right in the world.
People go around saying, "All you have to do is love everyone and peace will magically fall from the sky. We'll live under rainbows and the world will be right."
Is that what you think HHDL tells world leaders when they meet? Is that what you think TNH said in his addresses during the Paris Peace Talks over the war in Vietnam?
No... I think he if was to use those exact words, they would get him a nice straight-jacket that matched his outfit and send him to the funny farm.
But, do you think that TNH's ideas are going to really resolve the issues we have with people that don't give a rip about peace, compassion and happiness?
The ONLY way that I can see TNH's word and thoughts coming to fruition is by having world leaders that desire peace, removal of global hunger, compassion, etc. Once we have leaders that are more concerned with these issues rather than polls, re-election for another term, kick-backs, power, money, etc. - it's not likely that it's going to happen.
While certainly the injection of some basic Buddhist principles might help calm the conflicts in the world (lord knows the Israelis and the Palestinians need some basic teachings on cause and effect!), it is literally impossible for there ever to be complete peace and tranquility in samsara. That is not the nature of samsara. The nature of samsara is suffering. In other words, you can never take refuge in samsara because you will always be disappointed. So while I think it's important to at least try to spread tolerance and understanding, I don't for a minute think there will ever be "peace on earth".
While certainly the injection of some basic Buddhist principles might help calm the conflicts in the world (lord knows the Israelis and the Palestinians need some basic teachings on cause and effect!), it is literally impossible for there ever to be complete peace and tranquility in samsara. That is not the nature of samsara. The nature of samsara is suffering. In other words, you can never take refuge in samsara because you will always be disappointed. So while I think it's important to at least try to spread tolerance and understanding, I don't for a minute think there will ever be "peace on earth".
Palzang
Pally...
Thank you for making my point in such a way that I had never thought of (samsara).
I read a review of one of Thich Nhat Hanh's books a few months ago, where the reviewer talked about getting annoyed and frustrated at how simplistic the message was, and even more so because of a nagging feeling in the back of the mind that it was also true.
At the end, the reviewer mentioned the fact that Thich Nhat Hanh comes from a zen tradition, where koans are an integral part of the teachings.
I read a review of one of Thich Nhat Hanh's books a few months ago, where the reviewer talked about getting annoyed and frustrated at how simplistic the message was, and even more so because of a nagging feeling in the back of the mind that it was also true.
At the end, the reviewer mentioned the fact that Thich Nhat Hanh comes from a zen tradition, where koans are an integral part of the teachings.
Sometimes the answer is so simple those addicted to intellectualizing won't accept it.
What is the title of the book?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited May 2006
As the saying goes, The most logical things are blindingly simple - But 'Simple' doesn't mean 'Easy'......
Sometimes the answer is so simple those addicted to intellectualizing won't accept it.
What is the title of the book?
Either "Calming the Fearful Mind: A Zen Response to Terrorism" or "Peace Begins Here: Palestinians and Israelis Listening to Each Other", can't remember which one. I was looking for new books to read by a few different authors, but I'm going to wait a little longer to buy more books at once. "Cheaper" that way, since I'll only have to paid for shipping once.
Samsara doesn't need war to be unsatisfactory. The Buddha didn't say old age, sickness, death and war.
Dearest Brigid,
I hope you don't get the feeling that I disagree with what you or the Ven. THN are saying. I completely agree.
I just think that the nature of people that will claw and scratch their way to power don't hold such views regarding (ready for it...) tolerance, compassion, love, human rights, peace, etc.
Buddha didn't throw "sex, drugs and rock n' roll" in with samsara, did he?
Buddha didn't throw "sex, drugs and rock n' roll" in with samsara, did he?
He did, as a matter of fact.
I get your point, BF, and Palzang's. I agree with it as well, to a certain extent. I'm just not ready to throw in the towel on peace activism. I'll be a peace activist until the day I shuffle off this mortal coil. The end of war on earth is possible and one day we'll get there.
Before I begin, I have to adnmit that I only read the first 5 pages and the last 1 1/2 of this thread but it set me thinking, as I so often have to do, about my own position on war-in-general (I am not prepared to discuss the current adventurism).
Being born during the Great Patriotic War/Great Capitalist War/WW2, with an uncle fighting in Burma and parents serving as doctor and nurse in the East End of London, I still have some illusions left about heroism and just causes.
My education included such classics as Homer's Iliad and Mallory's Morte d'Arthur from which I learned that honour and courtesy were to be valued in combat. We were taught that it was these qualities that made us, somehow, better than savage oponents who admitted of no rules of conduct in war. Our heroes had internal codes of conduct to which they adhered even at the cost of their own lives. Of course, this was fiction - but we also learned 'history':
we were taught about "God's truce" which was imposed by the Church, where no fighting could take place on Fridays or Sundays between Christians. We were taught about the United Nations and the rules of war that had emerged from the horrors of three decades of war. We were taught the following:
* War is abominable and to be avoided at great cost;
* War must only be the last resort and should be clearly signalled by a timed ultimatum with clear and achievable goals;
* War will tend to dehumanise the active participants and, for this reason, there must be a supervisory power who can call "foul".
In samsara, conflict will occur, between individuals and between groups. People of principle will be caught up in such conflicts. Be true to your principles. There is nothing else.
I get your point, BF, and Palzang's. I agree with it as well, to a certain extent. I'm just not ready to throw in the towel on peace activism. I'll be a peace activist until the day I shuffle off this mortal coil. The end of war on earth is possible and one day we'll get there.
In samsara, conflict will occur, between individuals and between groups. People of principle will be caught up in such conflicts. Be true to your principles. There is nothing else.
All so very true.
There is the part of me that wishes and hopes that other might be able to learn by my example. Thus, I have great power and great responsibility... just like Spiderman.
Sorry... I just can't seem to stay serious for a complete sentence.
Let me echo bf to say that I never meant one should throw up one's hands and give up. Rather we should continue to oppose war and violence in every way possible. But we also have to be realistic about it and understand that that is the nature of samsara. People are born killers biologically. We actually love to hunt and kill. It's in our genes. Now, whenever I say that, there are some people who go aghast and say, "Not me! How can you say such a thing?!" I say it because it's true. Sure, we can overlay civilization and morals on top of those primitive instincts, but we can never completely eradicate them (at least until we're enlightened). Knowing that, I think we must then feel compassion for those who engage in war and violence even if we don't agree with them. They're just ignorant sentient beings like ourselves who are struggling to find happiness and failing miserably. Knowing better, it falls to us to try to find ways to educate them that there is an alternative. So once again, a good opportunity to practice!
First, it is important to note that the definition of skillful states of mind as free of greed, aversion, and delusion, provides a convenient rule of thumb for distinguishing between intentions that are merely good and those that are actually skillful. Sometimes good intentions are colored by ignorance, as when one tries to help another person without knowing the true source of that person's problem. This would qualify as a good but not a skillful intention. As we have noticed, the processes of causality are sensitive and complex. Thus there is no getting by on well-meaning intentions alone. One must monitor one's actions continually to make sure that they are, in fact, appropriate to the present situation, and are not based on ignorance. Delusion, even well-meaning delusion, is a source for unskillful acts. For this reason, one needs to be constantly observant of one's actions and their effects [§6] so that one's good intentions can truly become skillful, and one's actions can actually do justice to the specific conditions in the here and now produced by the process of this/that conditionality.
Second, the distinction between skillful and unskillful provides an insightful explanation for the causes for good and evil behavior. This distinction is not limited to the values of any particular society, and it avoids the issue of whether beings are inherently good or bad. When people act in evil ways, it is because they lack skill in the way they think; when they think in skillful ways, they naturally will do good. Because skill is something that can be acquired, the way to goodness is open for all people who want to be good, no matter how badly they have behaved in the past. The Canon tells of people who had committed misdeeds and, upon realizing their mistakes, confessed them to the Buddha. The most striking instance was King Ajatasattu [DN 2], who had killed his father in order to secure his position on the throne. In spite of the gross nature of the deed, the Buddha approved of the king's confession, and — instead of playing on any feelings of guilt the king might have had — encouraged him in his determination to mend his ways, adding that it is a cause for progress in the noble way if one realizes one's mistakes as such and resolves not to repeat them. Thus it is always possible to make a fresh start in life, aware of one's past bad kamma and resolving to mend one's ways, unburdened with any feelings that one might be inherently unworthy or bad.
Third, it is important to note the two basic factors, internal and external, that enable one to tell what is skillful and unskillful. The main internal factor is "appropriate attention," [§53] which is well illustrated in §1. One learns to view one's thoughts objectively, without partiality, in terms of their actual consequences. As this factor develops from a sense of conviction in the principle of kamma [§§9-17], it turns into the ability to view all of experience in terms of the four noble truths [§51]. The main external factor is friendship with admirable people [§54], defined as those who live by the principle of kamma. From their teachings, one can learn the advisability of trying to develop skillfulness in the first place; in their behavior, one can see skillfulness in action. These internal and external factors reinforce one another, in that skillful attitudes lead one to seek out admirable people to begin with, and admirable people lead one by word and example to see the less obvious advantages of skillful attitudes. Fortunately, every human being alive has some skillful qualities in his or her mind, as well as access to people who are admirable on at least some level. Thus no one consciously starting on the Buddhist path is starting from scratch. Rather, each person is advised to make the most of opportunities that have already been present and to search for further opportunities to develop the mind in a skillful direction.
I just thought that these three paragraphs might prove to be useful.
Is the price of promoting "democracy" really worth it?
I have seriously questioned my faith in the potential goodness of humanity recently. Last night I heard on the news that the military killed Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in a surprise airstrike on one of his safe houses. Everyone was trumpeting this development as "a success", "a political victory", and "a major step forward in our fight against sectarian violence in Iraq". As I was watching the rest of the story, they preceded to explain the murky details of what had happened (since the initial details of any military operation are usually sketchy and incomplete). The military had apparently received some amount of intelligence from those close to al-Zarqawi about his general whereabouts, and the locations of his various strongholds. They did not know exactly where he was, or that he would be at such-and-such location at such-and-such time, but they at least had some idea of his general whereabouts and/or movements. They must have been hot on his trail (or blessed by incredible good fortune) because this particular safe house was already under military surveillance, and they knew exactly when he arrived. When those watching the safe house confirmed his presence, they immediately ordered an airstrike.
The airstrike was so well planned and executed that they dropped both the laser-guided bomb and the satellite-guided bomb from several miles away just so that the occupants would be caught completely by surprise. They even reported that the reason the second bomb was dropped was to make sure that everyone inside was killed. Allegedly, the ground commander did not want to take any chances by trying to go in and capture him alive, so the decision was made to simply eliminate the target. What I find so disturbing about this -- besides the fact that people died -- was that there was a woman and child among the six people killed. I am not sure if this has been confirmed yet, but the initial reports indicated that they were six people inside the building including al-Zarqawi, his spiritual advisor, an unidentified woman, and a child. If this safe house was indeed under surveillance, they must have been aware of their arrival and/or presence. I cannot explain why, but an unexpected feeling arouse within me, and I felt very angry that nobody was focusing on the deaths of these two innocent people. All the media concentrated on was showing al-Zarqawi's dead, lifeless face, and how this was a good thing.
I honestly don't know what is more shocking -- the fact that they would knowingly destroy this structure with innocent civilians inside, or that they could be happy regardless of this fact. The path of destruction we have left in our wake to remove one man's influence and leadership is unbelievable. We portray ourselves as the knight in shining armor of the world -- a champion of democracy and freedom -- but without any of the characteristics of a knight whatsoever. Where is the honor and virtue of chivalry? I understand that in war, death is inevitable; however, the killing of innocent civilians -- including women and children -- is considered an acceptable risk in today's civilized society. How can murdering any sentient being under the conceptual guise of democracy and freedom be justified? Tell me where the democracy and freedom lies for that woman and child. Tell me how we can blind ourselves to the sheer madness of ending a child's life -- a child too young to even understand what he or she is in the middle of -- in the name of peace, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Some might remind me that I have the freedom to say this, but it seems like a hollow freedom if I cannot do anything to prevent their deaths.
If anyone find this post offensive, I sincerely apologize.
I don't find your post offensive in the least. I find the murder of women and children, and "non-combatants" in general, to be offensive, to put it very mildly.
From the newspaper accounts, the elimination of al-Zaqari may have taken an 'insurgent' leader out of the picture - and, if the stories are true - a very unpleasant individual, too. Nevertheless, the triumphal trumpeting of this long-distance strike has a really nasty tone to it.
The way in which the trial of Saddam Hussein and others is more or less described appears to me to be more propaganda than a fair and just legal process. Perhaps that is the reason that the invading forces eliminated al-Zaqari rather than capture and try him. After all, the refusal of the predominant member of those forces to recognise any sort of overarching international criminal court means that there is no real mechanism for such a trial.
I am sure that this is not the place to rehearse, once again, the structure of lies built upon hypocrisy piled upon yet more lies which brought us to invade Iraq, nor the horrifying and unlawful actions of 'our' troops. It is, however, salutary to reflect that history will, ultimately, judge the actions of the coalition. Once the whole chain of events is clear, I have no doubt that this military adventurism will be classed with some of the worst of imperialist agressions - and one of the worst executed.
When I watch the pictures of the very cradle of our civilisation, the 'holy ground', Babylon the Great, I am reminded of what Tactitus said about his fathert-in-law, Agricola, when, as governor of Britain, he put down the native insurgency: Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant. (They make a wilderness and call it peace)
In daily life, we are told: "If you find you're in a hole, stop digging". In the case of Iraq and Afghanistan (because the situation there, hushed up in the media, is deteriorating fast again), we appear to apply a different motto: "If we're in a hole, we'll carry on killing."
As one who follows, however poorly, the teachings of such peace-loving teachers as the Buddha or the Christ, I think that we have a duty in compassion to speak out and to oppose foul actions by our own leaders and representatives (military as well as political) at least as loudly as those of overseas nations. Have these people, who are supposed to be caring for and protecting us, no concept of the effects on everyone of this global karmic action ?
I was somewhat consoled by the fact that the news reports are now stating that only adults were killed in the attack. However, I still cannot seem to quell the same anger, frustration, or feelings of hopelessness that people will never change their violent behavior that I initially felt. Three of those adults were women, and I find myself wondering just how much they were actually involved in any "terrorist" activities. Is our mission of "promoting democracy" really worth their deaths? Is it really worth even one death? I wish that I could make some sense of this insanity, or at least still believe all of the bullshit they keep telling me to believe in--things such as "we must win the war on terrorism", "they want us there", "we're promoting freedom and democracy", "war can be justified", etc. I cannot even seem to delude myself into thinking that it is ok anymore.
I cannot begin to imagine what it is like to be an Iraqi citizen right now. What kind of life is that to have to live? There does not seem to be a real "good" or "bad" side to me anymore. Does it really matter what side you are on? Death is indiscriminate when people fight out of greed, hatred, and delusion. How many innocent, unsuspecting people have to die before people will wake the fuck up and realize that this is wrong? Being relativley comfortable here in this gilded cage makes us shamefully complacent to the rest of the world's suffering. What about all of the soldiers we have sent to this country that have been injured or killed? What are they really dying for--is it honestly for freedom; or is it really about oil, or something else that is not worth the sacrifice? What about all of these soldiers' families? How must they feel when we only view their loss as another statistic?
I do not want to "celebrate" or "rejoice" because I see some dead man's face flash across my television screen every five minutes, or hear that another brave soldier died for some vague cause (like promoting democracy) that I do not believe justifies killing. Five years ago, I would have said good riddance to al-Zaqari, but today I have to wonder if we are really any better. What good is freedom if that freedom is built upon the deaths of others? Does that kind of freedom really make us free? As much as I want to believe that it can, I cannot deny the fact that I know it is simply impossible. There have been countless wars in the past, there are countless wars going on right now, and there shall be countless wars in the future. If war could truly end violence -- and make us free in every sense of the word -- we should be a fucking utopian paradise by now.
All of this is not meant to provoke a response, a debate, or weasel my beliefs onto others. I simply need some way to express myself and my thoughts. Right now, I have developed a great deal of karuna (compassion), but I am having trouble practicing upekha (equanimity). It all just seemed to hit me quite unexpectedly -- *POW* -- an emotional flood of death, sadness, shock, fear, sympathy, anger, confusion, death, sadness, shock, fear, sympathy, anger, confusion, etc. It is a strange feeling for me. I mean, I never react this way. Normally, I could care less about what happens in the world. Everything is always so far away. But, when I heard that one story, it just came bubbling out. It was the catalyst I suppose--to see the gloating and trumpeting the media shelled out over a man's death, like killing can somehow save the world. I just do not understand.
I'm with you, Jason. It's enraging, frustrating and bewildering. All I can do when I get overwhelmed with emotions about this reeking mess is go inward and look at myself. I know this isn't any help but I wanted you to know you're not alone.
I feel intense towards these sort of things and theres no way to outlet the emotion really.. i mean you just can't do anything to sort it out help it.. or even tell people because they don't care to listen..
its like coming across a guy who is 12 feet tall and weighs like 30 stone.. and he's just continuosly beating ppl to death and commiting stuff outta nightmares.. and you tell him to stop and he does nothing but ignore you.. ppl are screaming everywhere and theres nothing you can do.. he keeps going.. you try to explain to him that its not the answer and he ignores you.. sweeps you the side..
Its just insane.. i don't like feeling helpless but i don't think i can do anything to show ppl what they r doing is a disgrace to humanity.. if we all want to live happilly .. then why do they do it?
all these romantic army wanabes...sigh... and 'christian' govts... (no offence meant)..
I feel intense towards these sort of things and theres no way to outlet the emotion really.. i mean you just can't do anything to sort it out help it.. or even tell people because they don't care to listen..
its like coming across a guy who is 12 feet tall and weighs like 30 stone.. and he's just continuosly beating ppl to death and commiting stuff outta nightmares.. and you tell him to stop and he does nothing but ignore you.. ppl are screaming everywhere and theres nothing you can do.. he keeps going.. you try to explain to him that its not the answer and he ignores you.. sweeps you the side..
Its just insane.. i don't like feeling helpless but i don't think i can do anything to show ppl what they r doing is a disgrace to humanity.. if we all want to live happilly .. then why do they do it?
all these romantic army wanabes...sigh... and 'christian' govts... (no offence meant)..
you ask me .. i want a buddhist government
Get involved, Celebrin. There are lots of ways in which you can use that "righteous anger" constructively. Join Amnesty and Greenpeace. Avoid the BNP. Just chewing on anger produces some pretty nasty physical and mental effects which also, naturally, screw up your feelings even more.
Simon's right, Celebrin. The cure is positive non-violent action by volunteering for the peace movement. I think we could all benefit from doing a little reading. Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. anyone? With a bit of Thich Nhat Hanh and the Dalai Lama on the side?
Comments
The military does a great 'mind f*ck'. It may take a lifetime to clear the mirror afterwards.
Palzang
(he cried into the storm, tilting at windmills)
Who was the saint of lost causes again?
Palzang
-bf
Judee Judee Judee AH HUNG?
Palzang
This does not change that many fight in what they believe is a good vs evil battle, in WWII or now. No matter who grows richer from it.
I don't remember the name of the british diplomat that many believe helped, through appeasement, Hitler in becoming stronger and more able to carry out his crazy notions.
Sounds something like Neville Chamberlain.
The question of isolationism or overseas adventurism is one that has been long debated in the US, mainly since 1900.
I struggle with the Atanatiya Sutta and Ahina Sutta as compared to the other reasonable concepts of Buddhism. Are there actually actions,meditions, beliefs that can keep me safe from brigands or snake bite?
Wouldn't it be wonderful if they (the old guys) held a war and nobody came was a thought from my old Yippy days (not hippy). A problem I see with that now is that both sides would have to stop thier killing and conquest, not just one side.
Is the killing of a one ever justified? Is the slaughter of other sentient beings ever justified? (animals) I dont know, but I am grateful to those who defend me and provide me with food.
Such confusing world, I think i will just sit.
Palzang
That sounds more like a song by Eric Burden and War.
-bf
I can mentally support those who do this as their livelihood, in good conscience, valuing human life.
I just distrust those who are in authority and I abhor killing.
That's about all I can say.
-bf
Hey, BF.
I wish I had the energy to post some of the many suggestions from the Dalai Lama concerning modern world affairs, war and it's consequences and the many, many, alternatives to war in today's increasingly interdependent world.
If anyone genuinely wants to understand that there are alternatives to war, no matter what we're being told by politicians or multi-national corporations, please read Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh, HHDL or the thousands of other peace activists who write from years and years of personal experience. TNH served as chair of the Buddhist Peace Delegation to the Paris Peace Talks during the Vietnam war and the Dalai Lama was awarded The Nobel Peace Prize. No, maybe we can't solve them but we can certainly read the words of those who may be our only hope in solving them.
Dearest Punkin,
I understand what you are saying. And in a Utopian world (in my humble opinion) yes!, these things can work.
But, this isn't a Utopian world and, unfortunately (again... IMHO), TNH has wonderful thoughts and ideas - but all of them are not realistic.
I know I'm going to get everyone's dander up by saying this but...
People go around saying, "All you have to do is love everyone and peace will magically fall from the sky. We'll live under rainbows and the world will be right."
That's almost like saying, "I love hungry tigers. I want them to become vegetarians because eating all that meat is causing them too much negative energy. I'm going to go over there and show him all my love and this bowl of rice."
Which is the last thing they ever see while the tiger spends the next couple of days passing their jeans and tennis shoes.
There is an old parable I'd like to share:
Explain Buddha's wisdom to Hitler or Stalin or Pinochet or Pol Pot or... need I go on?
Many people tried alternatives to these killers brand of government - and died.
So - I can't sit here and live in the delusion that by showing love and compassion everything will be right in the world.
Punkin.
-bf
Is that what you think HHDL tells world leaders when they meet? Is that what you think TNH said in his addresses during the Paris Peace Talks over the war in Vietnam?
But, do you think that TNH's ideas are going to really resolve the issues we have with people that don't give a rip about peace, compassion and happiness?
The ONLY way that I can see TNH's word and thoughts coming to fruition is by having world leaders that desire peace, removal of global hunger, compassion, etc. Once we have leaders that are more concerned with these issues rather than polls, re-election for another term, kick-backs, power, money, etc. - it's not likely that it's going to happen.
That's my only point.
Why? What are you gonna teach me?
-bf
Boc boc boc...
-bf
-bf
When thoughts are quieted down, fire itself is cool and refreshing.
BurningMonk.jpg
Talk about the silent scream of protest, I'm always touched by this pcture.
PS. I first learned of the path of mindfulness from a friend I made when I was in the US Navy.
Palzang
"there must come a time when all must fight"
personally i don't care as long as i never see war .. or am involved in it to a large scale
Pally...
Thank you for making my point in such a way that I had never thought of (samsara).
-bf
At the end, the reviewer mentioned the fact that Thich Nhat Hanh comes from a zen tradition, where koans are an integral part of the teachings.
Sometimes the answer is so simple those addicted to intellectualizing won't accept it.
What is the title of the book?
Samsara doesn't need war to be unsatisfactory. The Buddha didn't say old age, sickness, death and war.
Either "Calming the Fearful Mind: A Zen Response to Terrorism" or "Peace Begins Here: Palestinians and Israelis Listening to Each Other", can't remember which one. I was looking for new books to read by a few different authors, but I'm going to wait a little longer to buy more books at once. "Cheaper" that way, since I'll only have to paid for shipping once.
Dearest Brigid,
I hope you don't get the feeling that I disagree with what you or the Ven. THN are saying. I completely agree.
I just think that the nature of people that will claw and scratch their way to power don't hold such views regarding (ready for it...) tolerance, compassion, love, human rights, peace, etc.
Buddha didn't throw "sex, drugs and rock n' roll" in with samsara, did he?
-bf
I get your point, BF, and Palzang's. I agree with it as well, to a certain extent. I'm just not ready to throw in the towel on peace activism. I'll be a peace activist until the day I shuffle off this mortal coil. The end of war on earth is possible and one day we'll get there.
Being born during the Great Patriotic War/Great Capitalist War/WW2, with an uncle fighting in Burma and parents serving as doctor and nurse in the East End of London, I still have some illusions left about heroism and just causes.
My education included such classics as Homer's Iliad and Mallory's Morte d'Arthur from which I learned that honour and courtesy were to be valued in combat. We were taught that it was these qualities that made us, somehow, better than savage oponents who admitted of no rules of conduct in war. Our heroes had internal codes of conduct to which they adhered even at the cost of their own lives. Of course, this was fiction - but we also learned 'history':
we were taught about "God's truce" which was imposed by the Church, where no fighting could take place on Fridays or Sundays between Christians. We were taught about the United Nations and the rules of war that had emerged from the horrors of three decades of war. We were taught the following:
* War is abominable and to be avoided at great cost;
* War must only be the last resort and should be clearly signalled by a timed ultimatum with clear and achievable goals;
* War will tend to dehumanise the active participants and, for this reason, there must be a supervisory power who can call "foul".
In samsara, conflict will occur, between individuals and between groups. People of principle will be caught up in such conflicts. Be true to your principles. There is nothing else.
I'm glad there are people like you.
-bf
All so very true.
There is the part of me that wishes and hopes that other might be able to learn by my example. Thus, I have great power and great responsibility... just like Spiderman.
Sorry... I just can't seem to stay serious for a complete sentence.
But these are very true words.
-bf
Palzang
From the Venerable Thanissaro Bhikkhu's book The Wings to Awakening:
I just thought that these three paragraphs might prove to be useful.
Best wishes,
Jason
Is the price of promoting "democracy" really worth it?
I have seriously questioned my faith in the potential goodness of humanity recently. Last night I heard on the news that the military killed Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in a surprise airstrike on one of his safe houses. Everyone was trumpeting this development as "a success", "a political victory", and "a major step forward in our fight against sectarian violence in Iraq". As I was watching the rest of the story, they preceded to explain the murky details of what had happened (since the initial details of any military operation are usually sketchy and incomplete). The military had apparently received some amount of intelligence from those close to al-Zarqawi about his general whereabouts, and the locations of his various strongholds. They did not know exactly where he was, or that he would be at such-and-such location at such-and-such time, but they at least had some idea of his general whereabouts and/or movements. They must have been hot on his trail (or blessed by incredible good fortune) because this particular safe house was already under military surveillance, and they knew exactly when he arrived. When those watching the safe house confirmed his presence, they immediately ordered an airstrike.
The airstrike was so well planned and executed that they dropped both the laser-guided bomb and the satellite-guided bomb from several miles away just so that the occupants would be caught completely by surprise. They even reported that the reason the second bomb was dropped was to make sure that everyone inside was killed. Allegedly, the ground commander did not want to take any chances by trying to go in and capture him alive, so the decision was made to simply eliminate the target. What I find so disturbing about this -- besides the fact that people died -- was that there was a woman and child among the six people killed. I am not sure if this has been confirmed yet, but the initial reports indicated that they were six people inside the building including al-Zarqawi, his spiritual advisor, an unidentified woman, and a child. If this safe house was indeed under surveillance, they must have been aware of their arrival and/or presence. I cannot explain why, but an unexpected feeling arouse within me, and I felt very angry that nobody was focusing on the deaths of these two innocent people. All the media concentrated on was showing al-Zarqawi's dead, lifeless face, and how this was a good thing.
I honestly don't know what is more shocking -- the fact that they would knowingly destroy this structure with innocent civilians inside, or that they could be happy regardless of this fact. The path of destruction we have left in our wake to remove one man's influence and leadership is unbelievable. We portray ourselves as the knight in shining armor of the world -- a champion of democracy and freedom -- but without any of the characteristics of a knight whatsoever. Where is the honor and virtue of chivalry? I understand that in war, death is inevitable; however, the killing of innocent civilians -- including women and children -- is considered an acceptable risk in today's civilized society. How can murdering any sentient being under the conceptual guise of democracy and freedom be justified? Tell me where the democracy and freedom lies for that woman and child. Tell me how we can blind ourselves to the sheer madness of ending a child's life -- a child too young to even understand what he or she is in the middle of -- in the name of peace, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Some might remind me that I have the freedom to say this, but it seems like a hollow freedom if I cannot do anything to prevent their deaths.
If anyone find this post offensive, I sincerely apologize.
Sincerely,
Jason
How much I relate to your distress!
From the newspaper accounts, the elimination of al-Zaqari may have taken an 'insurgent' leader out of the picture - and, if the stories are true - a very unpleasant individual, too. Nevertheless, the triumphal trumpeting of this long-distance strike has a really nasty tone to it.
The way in which the trial of Saddam Hussein and others is more or less described appears to me to be more propaganda than a fair and just legal process. Perhaps that is the reason that the invading forces eliminated al-Zaqari rather than capture and try him. After all, the refusal of the predominant member of those forces to recognise any sort of overarching international criminal court means that there is no real mechanism for such a trial.
I am sure that this is not the place to rehearse, once again, the structure of lies built upon hypocrisy piled upon yet more lies which brought us to invade Iraq, nor the horrifying and unlawful actions of 'our' troops. It is, however, salutary to reflect that history will, ultimately, judge the actions of the coalition. Once the whole chain of events is clear, I have no doubt that this military adventurism will be classed with some of the worst of imperialist agressions - and one of the worst executed.
When I watch the pictures of the very cradle of our civilisation, the 'holy ground', Babylon the Great, I am reminded of what Tactitus said about his fathert-in-law, Agricola, when, as governor of Britain, he put down the native insurgency:
Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant.
(They make a wilderness and call it peace)
In daily life, we are told: "If you find you're in a hole, stop digging". In the case of Iraq and Afghanistan (because the situation there, hushed up in the media, is deteriorating fast again), we appear to apply a different motto: "If we're in a hole, we'll carry on killing."
As one who follows, however poorly, the teachings of such peace-loving teachers as the Buddha or the Christ, I think that we have a duty in compassion to speak out and to oppose foul actions by our own leaders and representatives (military as well as political) at least as loudly as those of overseas nations. Have these people, who are supposed to be caring for and protecting us, no concept of the effects on everyone of this global karmic action ?
I agree. Too bad nobody seems to be listening.
I was somewhat consoled by the fact that the news reports are now stating that only adults were killed in the attack. However, I still cannot seem to quell the same anger, frustration, or feelings of hopelessness that people will never change their violent behavior that I initially felt. Three of those adults were women, and I find myself wondering just how much they were actually involved in any "terrorist" activities. Is our mission of "promoting democracy" really worth their deaths? Is it really worth even one death? I wish that I could make some sense of this insanity, or at least still believe all of the bullshit they keep telling me to believe in--things such as "we must win the war on terrorism", "they want us there", "we're promoting freedom and democracy", "war can be justified", etc. I cannot even seem to delude myself into thinking that it is ok anymore.
I cannot begin to imagine what it is like to be an Iraqi citizen right now. What kind of life is that to have to live? There does not seem to be a real "good" or "bad" side to me anymore. Does it really matter what side you are on? Death is indiscriminate when people fight out of greed, hatred, and delusion. How many innocent, unsuspecting people have to die before people will wake the fuck up and realize that this is wrong? Being relativley comfortable here in this gilded cage makes us shamefully complacent to the rest of the world's suffering. What about all of the soldiers we have sent to this country that have been injured or killed? What are they really dying for--is it honestly for freedom; or is it really about oil, or something else that is not worth the sacrifice? What about all of these soldiers' families? How must they feel when we only view their loss as another statistic?
I do not want to "celebrate" or "rejoice" because I see some dead man's face flash across my television screen every five minutes, or hear that another brave soldier died for some vague cause (like promoting democracy) that I do not believe justifies killing. Five years ago, I would have said good riddance to al-Zaqari, but today I have to wonder if we are really any better. What good is freedom if that freedom is built upon the deaths of others? Does that kind of freedom really make us free? As much as I want to believe that it can, I cannot deny the fact that I know it is simply impossible. There have been countless wars in the past, there are countless wars going on right now, and there shall be countless wars in the future. If war could truly end violence -- and make us free in every sense of the word -- we should be a fucking utopian paradise by now.
All of this is not meant to provoke a response, a debate, or weasel my beliefs onto others. I simply need some way to express myself and my thoughts. Right now, I have developed a great deal of karuna (compassion), but I am having trouble practicing upekha (equanimity). It all just seemed to hit me quite unexpectedly -- *POW* -- an emotional flood of death, sadness, shock, fear, sympathy, anger, confusion, death, sadness, shock, fear, sympathy, anger, confusion, etc. It is a strange feeling for me. I mean, I never react this way. Normally, I could care less about what happens in the world. Everything is always so far away. But, when I heard that one story, it just came bubbling out. It was the catalyst I suppose--to see the gloating and trumpeting the media shelled out over a man's death, like killing can somehow save the world. I just do not understand.
How do we learn to cope with all these feelings?
Jason
its like coming across a guy who is 12 feet tall and weighs like 30 stone.. and he's just continuosly beating ppl to death and commiting stuff outta nightmares.. and you tell him to stop and he does nothing but ignore you.. ppl are screaming everywhere and theres nothing you can do.. he keeps going.. you try to explain to him that its not the answer and he ignores you.. sweeps you the side..
Its just insane.. i don't like feeling helpless but i don't think i can do anything to show ppl what they r doing is a disgrace to humanity.. if we all want to live happilly .. then why do they do it?
all these romantic army wanabes...sigh... and 'christian' govts... (no offence meant)..
you ask me .. i want a buddhist government
Get involved, Celebrin. There are lots of ways in which you can use that "righteous anger" constructively. Join Amnesty and Greenpeace. Avoid the BNP. Just chewing on anger produces some pretty nasty physical and mental effects which also, naturally, screw up your feelings even more.
and i was part of greenpeace.. but tbh id rather have the money
-bf
and i ya ya i got 3 new books.. tibetan book of living and dieing. Miracle of mindfulness and places that scare you