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Is prana just oxygen?

JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
edited June 2012 in Meditation
Since ancient times it's been noted that the bodies energy is dependent on prana/breath.

Could it be that that is just an option of oxygen in the body. For example deep breathing energizes a person... So is that prana or oxygen?

Comments

  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    Yeah it is.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    No, it isn't.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    federica,

    What makes you say that?

    taiyaki, same question to you?
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    Prana enters through the nose and it is used differently based on what center it is filtered through.

    Its oxygen and other stuff in the air. But i'm pretty confident it is mostly air which in turn effects blood and energy.

    But i guess one cannot know for sure.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited June 2012
    The Indian medical system (Ayurveda) like Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) focuses on a separate, inherent energy. in Ayurveda, it's called Prana and means life force. TCM calls it chi, which translates as Dragon's Breath.
    the Dragon is a type of gigantic fire-breathing lizard and it is both a creature of the air and the land, and is also closely connected to water. Its scales are a solid and defensive carapace, associated with metal.
    Therefore the dragon is connected to all 5 Transformations: Air, Earth, Water, Fire and Metal.
    The chi within our systems and indeed characteristic of all matter, can be activated, stimulated, depleted and replenished according to our habits. It is not dependent on the breath for its circulation, but has been more recently associated with lymph... although it's much more complex than that.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    Thanks Federica. I had experienced some pleasant mental states while deepening my breath.

    I just wondered if it was oxygen. I still think that, but think it is separate from the five elements you mention. I had heard of four of them, but not metal.
  • SattvaPaulSattvaPaul South Wales, UK Veteran
    edited June 2012
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think in certain practices such as qigong, the qi/chi can be felt outside the body or have effect on something outside.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    So is that prana or oxygen?
    Isn't prana basically related to the breathing process? Or respiration in modern terms?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Not as far as i am informed.
    Prana is also cultivated and diffused through yoga, just as chi is, with Tai chi or chi kung....
  • SileSile Veteran
    From Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche:

    When your mind lacks awareness, it is inevitably propelled into places it doesn’t  necessarily  want  to be. It gets caught  up in endless internal chatter, fixates on problems and worries, and gets dragged  into anger, guilt, pride, or desire. Whichever destination your mind arrives at there is just one essential force that propels  it there: the vital wind known as prana, chi, or (in Tibetan) lung. Prana is the essential  energy underlying all of existence. All of the ways you can relate to the world  and to your  own  mind,  energy, and  physical  body  are affected  by prana and all are inseparable from prana.

    To enter  the doorway of the mind,  therefore, you  must  harness  and guide prana rather than  be driven by it. Consciously guiding  prana begins with a basic understanding of the energy body. Unlike the physical body,  which  is made  up of flesh, blood, bones,  cells, blood  vessels, and vital organs, the energy body is made up of mind and energy: a system of spheres  of light, sacred  winds,  channels of light, and chakras.


    More of this great explanation here: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Buddhism/Articles/Mind-and-Prana-in-Meditation-Practice.aspx#ixzz1yDAxyjTC
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    I was just going to say that...... :D

    Thanks, great link...!
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Consciously guiding  prana begins with a basic understanding of the energy body. Unlike the physical body,  which  is made  up of flesh, blood, bones,  cells, blood  vessels, and vital organs, the energy body is made up of mind and energy: a system of spheres  of light, sacred  winds,  channels of light, and chakras.
    Interesting but it just feels to me like another set of beliefs - and is it relevant to Buddhist practice?
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    As with all things, you have to see that for yourself.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    As with all things, you have to see that for yourself.
    I've been finding that beliefs are usually a hindrance.
    ;)
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    Drop all expectations, but to annihilate beliefs as a hindrance, is excessive and extreme.
  • Sile
    Consciously guiding prana
    In my view, consciously doing anything with prana is a bad idea. All we can do is surrender to it... not even that.
  • SileSile Veteran
    Prana (rlung, chi, qi) is a central concept of Indian, Tibetan and Chinese medicine. I well remember the amazement in the voice of my friend, a first-time acupuncture patient, describing how the practitioner had "moved the hell out of" his chi ;). At any rate, it has been studied for too long to write it off as mere "belief," but all science requires belief at some point, even if it's simply belief in what you or others are experiencing.

    From the same teacher I cited above, here are some prana analogies I found fascinating and helpful:

    The Bön Mother Tantra uses the analogy of the horse, rider, and path to explain the relationship between mind, prana, channels, and chakras:

    *Prana is like a blind horse. Without your  mind  holding the  reins, prana gallops  unaware in whatever direction karma forces it to go.

    *The mind is like a lame rider. Without prana to propel  it, your mind is unable  to access and connect  with higher experiences of freedom, openness, and  clarity.  It also can’t effectively reach  others  through prayer.

    *When the lame rider catches the blind horse, your mind can go where it intends, experience the right kind of space, connect  with the right qualities, and manifest in the right ways. How does your mind catch and guide the prana? Through awareness.

    *The channels are the path. Just as a horse will naturally follow a clear trail  through a forest,  prana travels  through a system  of channels running throughout the body. There are gross physical channels such as your body’s nerves and blood  vessels, subtle energy channels, and very subtle channels that  are more related  to mind.
  • Nice quote.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    My teacher uses the channels in the bedrock of a river as the hourse. The rapids as the rider. And the mind qualities as the water.

    I am not involved in this teaching, just a mahayana practitioner.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Drop all expectations, but to annihilate beliefs as a hindrance, is excessive and extreme.
    I'm not talking about annihilating anything, just to recognise that beliefs are just beliefs, and that walking round with a head full of them often gets in the way of seeing things as they really are. And attachment to views can be a real hindrance.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    And how is that working for you?
    Really, I'm asking. :)
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited June 2012
    I'm not talking about annihilating anything, just to recognise that beliefs are just beliefs, and that walking round with a head full of them often gets in the way of seeing things as they really are. And attachment to views can be a real hindrance.
    That's why whether it's western science or eastern, it's good to study at least the basic principles, especially the way scientists have attempted to prove those principles, so that if you do come to accept the research, you have a reasoned faith in it rather than just blind.

    Acupuncture studies have shown, for example, that in addition to the "placebo affect" (using dummy needles) which activated the part of the brain that produces natural opiates, when real acupuncture needles were used, that same area of the brain was activated along with a second area, the insular, which is associated with pain modification:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4493011.stm


  • DaozenDaozen Veteran
    Like all "spiritual energy" phenomenon (chi, etc) prana has no verifiable status whatsoever.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited June 2012
    I would say that prana has a status that is at least as verifiable as dreams - we all know we dream about things, but we can't prove we dream about things - we accept each others' tales of dreams because we know that we ourselves have dreamed.

    We may not have developed a machine to measure or qualify dreams, but we know dreams exist--or, at least, we know they exist as much as anything can be known through direct experience, absent a machine that somehow captures the experience.

    Does love exist? There's another phenomenon for which there is no proof other than direct experience, and observance of people's behavior (again, no machine).

    What does "verifiable" mean? I think we mistakenly assume it means "capturable by machine," but even science doesn't require machine-capture of dreaming to acknowledge it exists. Scientists believe people dream, because people say they dream. They measure the various sleep states and so on, but they only talk about people "dreaming" because people claim to dream.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    @Daozen, please refer to my comment to you, here.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Acupuncture studies have shown, for example, that in addition to the "placebo affect" (using dummy needles) which activated the part of the brain that produces natural opiates, when real acupuncture needles were used, that same area of the brain was activated along with a second area, the insular, which is associated with pain modification: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4493011.stm

    Though there is this caveat towards the end of the article:

    "Professor Henry McQuay, professor of pain relief at the University of Oxford and member of the Bandolier group that looks at the evidence behind different medical treatments, said: "The great bulk of the randomised controlled trials to date do not provide convincing evidence of pain relief over placebo...... ... it is extremely difficult, technically, to study acupuncture and tease out the placebo effect."

    I've had acupuncture and didn't notice any positive benefits.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited June 2012
    It's worth reading through the increasing Journal of the American Medical Association activity on the subject - I guess one way of putting it would be that, if you accept the results simply as placebo effect, then at the least, the placebo effect of acupuncture convincingly outstrips both the placebo and non-placebo effects of conventional therapies in some situations (many of them quite newsworthy - cancer pain and nausea control, for example).

    If you search "acupuncture," "JAMA," and then limit the search results to say, the past year, you can find a decent amount of the current research
  • SileSile Veteran
    Oh...or, um (blush) just go to JAMA directly: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/journal.aspx
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    I guess one way of putting it would be that, if you accept the results simply as placebo effect, then at the least, the placebo effect of acupuncture convincingly outstrips both the placebo and non-placebo effects of conventional therapies in some situations (many of them quite newsworthy - cancer pain and nausea control, for example).
    I think what's tricky about this is that by definition the placebo affect relies on the patient believing that acupuncture is going to be effective in relieving symptoms. Have they done any studies comparing outcomes for "believers" compared to outcomes for skeptics? That would be interesting.
  • SattvaPaulSattvaPaul South Wales, UK Veteran
    If prana/chi is more subtle than the coarse physical body and is connected with the mind/mental states, it would make perfect sense to think that mental states (like belief/attitude) affect the prana, and thus the outcome of healing sessions.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    If prana/chi is more subtle than the coarse physical body and is connected with the mind/mental states, it would make perfect sense to think that mental states (like belief/attitude) affect the prana, and thus the outcome of healing sessions.
    Yes, or you could say that there is an intimate connection between physical and mental health.
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    No question this is a fact.
  • SattvaPaulSattvaPaul South Wales, UK Veteran
    edited June 2012
    Sure, I was just pointing out that you can see the energy as an intermediate between the mind and the body, in a a way, and so the mind could influence energy that could influence the body, or vice versa. Of course this is probably creating distinctions where there aren't any really.
  • SileSile Veteran
    A nice in-depth explanation from Dr. Pasang Y. Arya:

    "The wind energy can be simply described as a wind, but it is difficult to apprehend, as it cannot be perceived by our eyes consciousness. The wind does flow inside the body as well as outside of the body. The general shape of the inside wind is the same as that of the physical body, closed by the skin, because the tissues and organs are completely filled by the wind energy.

    The wind is pervasive. Wind is the energy, and body and psychic powers, but it also has physical functions in the nerves, organs, and tissues, because there is no solid tissue in the body without wind. All are produced by the material and sub-material of the wind particles along with the other elements. Therefore, if the wind flows correctly and harmoniously, it brings health, prosperity and clarity of the mind, while when wind is disturbed, the mind and body become disturbed and illness arises.


    If the wind energy is contaminated by wrong diet, behaviors and delusions, then the wind can circulate in wrong passages, give hallucinations to the mind and reduce its clarity.

    According to tantras, in the 72,000 channels flow 72,000 subtle winds, which impose 72.000 emotions. If these channels are soft, gentle and in the correct way or straight, the wind circulation moves freely and gives creativity and clarity to the mind. If the circulation is blocked or disturbed, 72, 000 negative emotions or related emotions may be produced. Commonly, in animals and human beings, these channels are not fully clear and clean, consequently the body ages, suffers, and death exists because of these disturbed energies in the channels. 
In fact, this is the identity and image of samsara. Whoever is able to recognize and see this wrong flow of energy in the channels can work on it through the yoga and tsa-rLung practices. That is why these practices focus so much on the wind.

    Tantras even say: 
“The one who knows the channels and their functions, knows the nature of the body. And the one who knows the functions of the wind, knows the functions of the mind.”

    More here: http://www.tibetanmedicine-edu.org/index.php/n-articles/vajra-body
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