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Moral implications of Karma?
Bodhivaka
Veteran
Does Buddhism teach that every bad thing which befalls a person is the result of Karma? For example, if someone is born with a disability is it due to some immoral action they committed in a past life?
The reason I ask is because I recently read an article in which the author stated one of the reasons he left Buddhism was because he thought it wrong to teach that people born with birth defects or disabilities were simply reaping what they had sowed in a past life, despite the lack of evidence in favor of rebirth or karma. I've shared in this concern, and so I'm hoping that perhaps Buddhism also teaches of alternative causes to suffering other than Karma. Perhaps suffering sometimes happens to help people learn certain life lessons? Maybe at times it's simply the result of pure chance and bad luck?
The reason I ask is because I recently read an article in which the author stated one of the reasons he left Buddhism was because he thought it wrong to teach that people born with birth defects or disabilities were simply reaping what they had sowed in a past life, despite the lack of evidence in favor of rebirth or karma. I've shared in this concern, and so I'm hoping that perhaps Buddhism also teaches of alternative causes to suffering other than Karma. Perhaps suffering sometimes happens to help people learn certain life lessons? Maybe at times it's simply the result of pure chance and bad luck?
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I think some are turned off by this notion because it can be used to judge a person as being flawed and an excuse to disregard them. We can't know somebody's full karma though so even though someone may be suffering the results of some negative karma if we were to help them and show some kindness then that too would be their karma. And really, who doesn't have some negative karma in their life? "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." I suppose it's just not as easy to hide a physical disability than it is some pyschological affliction or repeatedly suffering the results of negative karma through harmful behavior towards oneself by others.
Personally I like the idea because it says that ultimately we are the creators of our own fate, that everything happens for a reason and we have a lot of control over that fate. I'm not sure we can logically say that some things occur because of chance and some things occur due to subtle causes, doesn't it have to be one or the other?
Karma is only one of the 5 Buddhist laws.
The operation of the universe divides into five laws.
The laws, in one form, are:
(1) the laws of the physical world - that the world is not answerable to one's will;
(2) the laws of the organic world - that all things flow;
(3) the laws of morality - that karma is inexorable;
(4) the law of the Dharma - that evil is vanquished and good prevails;
(5) the laws of mind - that of the will to enlightenment.
.
Also bear in mind that scientific knowledge 2500 + yrs ago would be fairly rudimentary.
And so far, it seems Buddhism's doing OK...
@Lowell, if that person left Buddhism for that reason alone, then that person was sadly misinformed; Yes, it's true, some sectors in Buddhism to broadcast that view - but not all do.
All that person had to do, was to do a little more research, a little more investigation, a little more questioning, because that's not the end of it....
Kamma is a process, is not judgemental, critical or condemnatory.
And furthermore, the Buddha himself stated that the workings of Kamma were unconjecturable, unfathomable and impossible to work out.
The very best we can do, is to do the very best with what we have got, and where we are now, from moment to moment.
So for this person to leave Buddhism for that reason alone - is irrational, unskillful and misguided.
I like how Alan Watts puts it, "I was that dirty glint in my father's eye when he saw my mother!"
It's kinda like taking 100% responsibility for our happiness.
Fortunately, there are schools of Buddhism that don't require you to believe that. As @how says, it gives the possibility that some things just happen, through no fault of your own. When you actually read what the sutras have to say, you find it's neither fatalistic nor nihilistic. It's the middle way.
One could consider that the limitations of our expression are bound in our form - there is no requirement for the workings of the universe to mirror our understanding or mode of understanding - any concept sufficiently dissected will present a number of facets (some of which contradict) - Karma works for some - perhaps consider concepts as a means to an end so for example, what does it matter whether karma is correct or not if it leads / motivates you to act in a way beneficial / satisfactory / acceptable etc?
I'm not saying your viewpoint is wrong. Perhaps it's how it should be. I'm just saying that lots of people see karma completely differently.
As it happens, the OP has had more responses erring on the side of what seeker has said (and I for one happen to agree with it) than concurring with the view held by 'millions of Buddhists'.
And as the Buddha stated, it's unconjecturable, so actually, holding such definite opinions about the chain-causal effect of Kamma, is in my opinion, Wrong/misguided View.
It's a bit like Fundamental Christian viewpoint that the only way to god is through his son.
Which also used to rub me up the wrong way something chronic..."
"When we think of just the way some human beings are born, it is unbelievable. We couldn’t even imagine such bodies. There are people who are born with the face of a dog; they have hairy faces and look just like Lhasa apsos. Basically, these are all karmic results of immoral actions."
I am simply pointing out that perhaps a majority of world Buddhists see karma differently than those "responses erring on the side of what seeker has said".
You'll note that I didn't say which viewpoint was correct or incorrect. In fact, I don't know what is correct or incorrect. I have personal views about karma, but I wasn't projecting them in this discussion.
The problem I see is that since this is "New Buddhist.com", a new Buddhist could read this thread, assume that the majority viewpoint of Buddhists is what is found here. I think it's important that we sometimes point out that what is found here may be only one general viewpoint and that other viewpoints exist.
Look, for example, at the post @SattvaPaul posted just before this response. Do I necessarily agree with the viewpoint of Lama Zopa...no comment...but that viewpoint is quite pervasive in old-world Theravada Buddhism, as well. In fact, it controls a great deal of how Thais (for example) deal with handicaps and compassion.
I find that as heinous a claim as AIDS being a punishment from god against gay people.
EDIT:
I take your point, @vinlyn.
I should have added that I don't necessarily agree with that quote. I don't know. Sounds like BS to me too, but I just don't know. Lama Zopa is a highly regarded teacher. Who am I to say?
His holiness the DL states we should study a teacher for a good quantity of time before calling him - or her - our teacher.
All I can say is that anyone coming out with something like this, is not MY teacher.
I have a friend who is a carpenter - he taught me how to hang a door just right... you should hear his views on women and relationships - so I guess he was my teacher for purposes of teaching me the ways of the chippy... wont be taking him on to teach me the way with women and relationships.
To me such a title only says that at some time in this life, their teacher said they have understood.
Good analogy, but the trouble is in case of Buddhism (or more specifically some traditions) it is as if the teachings on women and relationships were part of the carpentry - it's one package.
How useful is it to think my disease is due to karma? Peace doesn't come from doctrine and generalizations. It comes from a person's journey. Journey to voidness. Existential disease?? No. Voidness. Don't throw bricks on someone at an inapropriate time in the journey of the four noble truths. Some realization of the third noble truth must be added, freedom from past lives and positivity.
If we don't remember the karmic cause of an outcome from a previous life it certainly seems unjust. Just as if we forgot how we wronged someone earlier in life and then we get our comeuppance, we don't know what we did to deserve it so its not fair.
And nobody bothered to teach Lama Zopa the fundamentals of genetics or for that matter, anything but basic reading and "spiritual" doctrine, so you can't fault him for having a constricted world view and not understanding how terrible something like this statement sounds. That's the danger of taking someone as a child and insulating them from the world. It's like taking a child and home schooling him that creationism is the true answer, forget about evolution, and God created the world 6000 years ago. What do you expect?
When we do what’s right in spite of being condemned for it; or avoid doing what’s wrong even when it would bring us advantages; that’s when we can start talking about morality.
I think morality and (the notion of) karma are opposites.
@Tosh
Another question about AA. I call emotional incidents of sickness in the lungs and bad body feeling.. Sickness towards others... I call these mushrooms. Or mushroom clouds. They are not magic mushrooms, which are psychadelhic energy buzzes in the heart, ie emotional.
So alcohol buzz gets the psychadelic mushroom and then the regular sick feeling mushroom eventually arrives. Often the next day hang over we feel so sick and person with hatred.
Psychadelic mushrooms are the fix and the emotional mushrooms are the disease. Self worth and backstabbing in one's mind of your friends.
So two mushrooms. Heart and lungs.
The reason I don't go to AA is that I think they think you can fix the emotional mushrooms by a higher power. I am trying to help with the emotional mushrooms by mindfulness. No tricks can help the emotional mushrooms and there is a peeling away as 'an above it all buddhist'. The higher power seems like a way to deal with the comfort zone of the emotions. Is that it?
And even scientific research is always advancing. We now know genes are much more changeable then we thought, for example, and can be influenced by behaviour.
IF you had a previous life, and you are punished for something you did in a life you can't even remember...well, no justice there at all. And that really bothers me.
that's why you just take the hand you're dealt right now, and work with that.
don't be bothered, don't be vexed, don't ask the why, how come and whatever.
see it for what it is.
a happening thing.
And if it is something that's hanging on from a life you can't remember, then smile, breathe and think - "ok, so what do i do now?"
Step 3 is where we turn our 'will and our lives' over to our Higher Power; but we do that by taking Steps 4 to 12, which basically involves dealing with our past, meditation, mindfulness and compassion for others.
Some people use God for their higher power; others use G.O.D (Group of Drunks; the A.A. Group and ethos of A.A.).
Jeffrey, if you look at the A.A. 12 Steps, they're easily translated into a Buddhist practise like Tonglen, and dare I say it, A.A. does some things better than I've learnt in Buddhism in this area. Also meditation, mindfulness (Step 10) and helping other alcoholics (compassion) are also 'Buddhist'.
How the 12 Steps work is that it helps us to understand the problem, it helps us to deal with the past (it's almost identical to Tonglen in some areas) and it provides a spiritual path:
Step 10 - 'taking a personal inventory' which translates as mindfulness.
Step 11 - Prayer and meditation
Step 12 - "Carrying this message to other alcoholics and practising these principles in all our affairs" this translates as compassion for others and living an ethical life.
None of these are 'tricks', it's just a spiritual path perfectly designed for alcoholics who normally have a lot of wreckage in our past - stuff we must deal - and Steps 10 to12 easily translate into a Buddhist spiritual path.
I hope some of that helps.
I personally don't take this as something horrible. The fact that someone has any type of disease or disorder or disability is horrible, no doubt. But I know too many people who've had past life regressions that point to statements like this being true. Not in such harsh words, but yes, current conditions being related to past deeds. In terms of, clearly the person has not learned X lesson and thus they are being made to learn it now, possibly even by their own choice prior to human birth(I have not entirely figured out my thoughts on Karma).
And I say this as a parent of an immune disorder. He was 2 when he was diagnosed. He certainly did nothing in this life to bring on what he's had to face. But perhaps he did something in a past life. Does it make me love him less? Of course not. Does it make me less compassionate? No, in fact it has taught me more about compassion. Does it make me treat him differently or manage his disease differently? Nope. Whatever path he is on while he is here is still his path, even if he's my 3 year old son. I just don't find the idea that our current state on earth, no matter how good or how bad, is due to our past Karmic reapings to be horribly offensive.
And I can say, as a newcomer to the page and fairly new to Buddhism that it is somewhat intimidating reading some of the posting here and going out on a limb to share things. It takes a lot of reading through everything to realize that it's a group of people sharing what they learned on different levels and different traditions. It becomes clear quickly who are the more prolific posters, where tensions lie, what users have had difficulties with each other in the past, and who feels they are definitive voices. It does make it intimidating.
Sometimes people absorb religious dogma to the point where they abdicate their emotional intelligence to scriptures. Karma is not an iron age system of cosmic retribution. Karma is cause and effect, it just means that if we tread carelessly we may stumble in the dark. Everyone knows that without Buddhism. And it means that if we do things that we don't respect, or make bad choices, that creates tensions in us and in our environment that leads to the creation of bad situations for ourselves. Again, everyone knows this without studying ancient texts.
It doesn't mean the disabled are cursed. That would be the most simplistic, offensive, juvenile interpretation of karma. The sort you'd expect from uneducated people who aren't enlightened and have to make stuff up for their students. But again, you didn't need me to tell you that.
I'm really sorry you came across that quote. My best friend is an artist who is immobile with cerebral palsy, and it's not a punishment upon him, rather he is a gift to us because he has been given a different viewpoint. His disability has nothing to do with karma, it has everything to do with the diversity inherent in the world.
There's some great teachings in the Pali Canon, but to be honest, this sounds like the sort of thing a 5th century BC monk would make up off the top of his head. As I keep repeating - you can see karma for yourself, you know how things happen, just look at your life. It's incredibly complex and nuanced, but at the same time we understand it, we know when we screwed up or which hours are our finest, and how things turn out afterwards, even when we try not to know.
Although I do have to admit that before I knew about Buddhism I used to view karma as some kind of ultimate justice. Now I realize that was just my own delusional ego judgement.
Rather than emphasizing past and future lives, as people often do when discussing karma, the Buddha’s teachings point to the importance of the present moment as the only time we can take responsibility for, and train in, the actions that bring freedom.
Best Wishes
Bad karma makes you suffer more, good karma makes you suffer less. Sure, disabled people have specific challenges, but there are generally happy disabled people - good karma, and there are generally unhappy able-bodied people - bad karma.
So I would suggest considering the spirit of the old texts rather than the letter. I'm more comfortable with the idea that dark karma leads to birth in a difficult situation, but peoples' lives are so diverse and the reasons for our happiness or unhappiness so complex that to say 'stingy people are born poor' or 'nasty people are born disabled' is a profound and basically offensive oversimplification of what constitutes a difficult situation. Poor people are often much happier than rich people, how is that bad karma then, to for instance be born poor in a beautiful, unpolluted part of the world to loving parents and a stable, supportive community?
No, the traditional view i.e. stingy people are born poor, sounds to me more like self-righteous, vengeful wish fulfillment. It works on the monotonous level of religious indoctrination, it doesn't work on a rational, sensitive, human level.
That would make sense.
I was searching yesterday for more info about it and came across this recording from BBC's Beyond Belief (go to bottom of page). A Buddhist nun (Ven. Robina Courtin), an Anglican priest and a Quaker discuss religions' attitude to disability in the context of karma or God's will. I wish I could hear more from the nun, but interesing to listen to nonetheless.
This is not my view BTW, but I think it's a logical conclusion of believing that those who suffer extreme hardship such as famine or disability is due to a mechanical belief in karma.