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So why didn't it stick?
Zenshin
VeteranEast Midlands UK Veteran
OK folks about six months ago I was reading a passage from the Pali Nikayas where the Buddha talks about different elements in the body, when I got to the part about the earth element I span out and saw that I didn't own my bones any more than I owned a rock in the garden, then I saw that we are like waves on the water - we rise peak and fall and amongst other stuff that everything was empty of inherent self. I experienced a rapture from this moment of true seeing beyond anything I ever experienced sober or not. It lasted for a few hours and then faded.
My question is why didn't this point of view stick - I'm still convinced that I have an I as such. It does help in the sense that when I want to give up Buddhism as too tough and go back to boozing and playing a lot of video games I remember the experience and say well you saw the truth in the Buddhas teaching so stick at it. I asked an experienced teacher about it online and his answer was basically just stick with the practice.
However if you have any thoughts or comments on why it didn't stick I'd appreciate them.
Thanks folks.
My question is why didn't this point of view stick - I'm still convinced that I have an I as such. It does help in the sense that when I want to give up Buddhism as too tough and go back to boozing and playing a lot of video games I remember the experience and say well you saw the truth in the Buddhas teaching so stick at it. I asked an experienced teacher about it online and his answer was basically just stick with the practice.
However if you have any thoughts or comments on why it didn't stick I'd appreciate them.
Thanks folks.
0
Comments
FWIW, I have known numbers of people who have had experiences that have been viscerally convincing -- way beyond anything as paltry as belief. These were wowser times to hear them tell it and I believe them. Wowser-good, wowser-bad ... but wide-open wowser, in any event.
And for each, such moments receded until they were fond memories ... which is precisely what should happen, in my view. We get a fleeting glimpse of something that cannot be adequately described. It blows our socks off. And then we set about learning to digest and integrate into our ordinary lives a thing that once seemed so extraordinary.
Swallow and digest, swallow and digest, swallow and digest ... is this really so extraordinary? For the moment, perhaps it is ... but wait a while and it will be good nourishment that is simply a part of the scenery.
Practice ... things get easier when you practice.
Then we are no good to anybody.
Mindfulness should almost be called remindfulness for some stuff.
Before enlightenment rivers were rivers and mountains were mountains;
During enlightenment rivers are no longer rivers and mountains are no longer mountains;
After enlightenment rivers are once again rivers and mountains are once again mountains.
-- Old Zen saying
@ourself _/|\_
And then there's the wise ol' American saying:
There are many teachers who say the most dangerous time for a trainee comes after a spiritual experience. Nothing like a touch of certainty to propel one where caution formally protected you.
Monasteries where I have trained, emphatically taught the importance of approaching such experiences as one would do with any other arising phenomena. Even in traditions that number and formulate different degrees of possible understanding include this same teaching for all of those understandings.
In reality they can stay,live and teach as long as one doesn't identify with them, which can be measured in seconds or years.
I think such experience visit all humans. Buddhists just teach you how to stay out of it's way to limit the ego's chances of squashing the competition.
Even when it eventually subsides from the present to the past tense, it may still serve you through difficult times if ones faith is truely threatened.
Are you saying you find what I said to contradict your understanding? If so perhaps you could better explain.
Not sure what that really means except that maybe Americans are too obsessed with sex.
I'm not getting any and it's no big deal. In fact, I'd say it isn't important unless I am getting it. But then, I wouldn't have relations with a woman unless I think she'd be good mother material anyways.
The whole thing is a rock and a hard place as far as I can see. There you were, running around like a good little Buddhist, proclaiming Buddhism, practicing Buddhism, reading up on Buddhism and one day Buddhism turns around like an exasperated mama tiger and grabs you by the throat. I suppose I could put that more kindly -- couch it in more fluff -- but irrespective of phraseology, I see no escaping the experience, assuming things are on track.
But at the point where experience asserts itself, two roads present themselves: One, as a teacher said to me curtly once, is "Forget about it!" Just let it drift away as any sensible wood smoke might. The other is to build an adoring temple and set about worshiping what is now long gone... the kind of exercise through which both self others can be blinded. The latter course has danger and falsehood written all over it, but this is not something you can tell a 'true believer.' Cult-o-matic ... whether within or without.
But there is simply no avoiding such dangers as far as I can see. It comes with the territory of practicing Buddhism with some determination. Not for nothing did the Vedas refer to spiritual practice as "the razor's edge" ... one slip and the matter will slit your throat. It's dangerous as hell seeking the safety of heaven.
And it is within this thicket -- when the wondrousness or horror of experience cannot be pushed away and cannot be adequately nailed down and adored -- that the determination of practice shows its appropriateness. Yes, it's a wondrous or horrific experience ... practice anyway. Yes, it may shape itself into some golden idol in the mind ... practice anyway.
Practice anyway ... and see what happens.
Sorry for this gibberish.
Oops, sorry, lol. I guess my asking for clarification kinda drove your point home then, eh?
@How; I know exactly what you mean here because I had an experience that felt like the big awakening but it wasn't long before it turned into a kind of delusion. Thankfully it took even less time for me to see that what I took as truth wasn't ineffable.
I still like it and it came with its own little versiuon of the Golden Rule and everything
I'm quite thankful for this diverse little sangha.
For me digestion ( the word that I like) is really just letting go. It says that such understanding makes neither you or it, special. It says that such understanding can not be acquired, only experienced where and as long as a part of one's identity was dropped.
Genkaku's sneeze, gives me a runny mind.
Appamadavagga
31. The monk who delights in heedfulness and looks with fear at heedlessness advances like fire, burning all fetters, small and large.
32. The monk who delights in heedfulness and looks with fear at heedlessness will not fall. He is close to Nibbana.
The practice often is not like a clear line towards a certain direction, its a bit of a winding mountain road, some days are more dowhill than others. Some moments the mind has more self view than others. I've seen this happen to me over the past years and I think this is what is happening to you too. But through time, gradually the mind loses its self view, if we practice diligently.
According to Therevadan view, even before full enlightenment, a final breakthrough into no-self is possible, from which point there will be no belief of self, forever. But even after that, the windy behavior of the path and self-view goes on, but on a more subtle level.
So to summarize: it's only natural. Don't worry.
I'm just paraphrasing someone who read the book; I've tried reading the book myself, and it's a ruddy boring and dry read.
If you could remember back to when you were a baby and you were exploring touch then you may remember the same rapture - kids are the same to some extent - give them something new and watch the rapture - the older one is, the tougher it is to be surprised.
Of course - what was once new is rapidly assimilated and there is no need for rapture - it's not that the rapture didn't stick - its probably more akin to the realisation sticking and becoming accepted / mundane - so what's next? how to be surprised again?