Re. HHDalai Lama

Suz1

Hi all- in another post it was mentioned that ' the Dalai Lama isn't enlightened he'd said so himself'.. I too have read stuff where he implies that-
But if he were enlightened would he have any need to say so? Doesn't an enlightened person realize there's no self or other so how could an enlightened person announce ' I'm enlightened' when they Know there's no 'I'?
On the other hand maybe he's not but after a lifetime of meditating I just imagine he is.... ????
And re the thread on sex- I'm confused! I heard Adyashanti tell a questioner that he's not celibate --and he's enlightened ( and supposedly So is his wife?) but it sounds like an enlightened person has no desire? Hmmm
Anyway ok thanks!

Dakini

My opinion is if a guru is having sex (especially if he's overdoing it, i.e. having sex with followers), he's not as enlightened as he says he is, or pretends to be. Enlightened people walk their talk. But at least the one you mentioned is honest. He doesn't hide his non-celibacy.

taiyaki

It all depends on what view you hold and thus that gives your perception of what enlightenment is and isn't.

For instance if you hold the Hinayana view then a buddha cannot have sex. But that is because the pure expression of a buddha is renouciation.

Whereas in mahayana there is a bit more freedom to express. For instance ending a life of an injured animal. Compassionate action rules beyond renoucing.

In vajrayana everything is used to magnify the clarity of the dharmakaya. Every expression good or bad is the very functionof enlightenment.

So the higher view you take the more freedom there is. Which isn't to say one is better, etc. but these are the views and systems.

Ultimately a buddha is limitless and free. But he or she works with circumstances.
Zero limitations thus limitations are possible.

Its really important to study different traditions and their views of the end goal. Each tradition has a different emphasis and expression but ultimately it is all the same goal of total freedom or peace.

Dakini

Doesn't an enlightened person realize there's no self or other so how could an enlightened person announce ' I'm enlightened' when they Know there's no 'I'?

This is a good question. Firstly, the Buddha didn't say there's no self. He said there's no fixed, static self. There is an ever-evolving self. The Buddha taught a Middle Way between "eternalism" (a fixed self, or "soul") and "nihilism" (no self).

He also referred to himself as "the Tathagata", and other epithets. He recognized that to get along in everyday life, one has to use an "I" concept. He used the first person singular pronoun in his speech. As long as we're mindful of the fact that the "I" we refer to is an ever-changing, evolving "I", then I think we're ok.

It does seem boastful to say "I'm enlightened", but I don't believe the Buddha was attached to his status as the Enlightened One. I think he was mainly stating a fact, and announcing the reality of his transformation, so he could teach others. He struggled with the whole issue of what to do after his Enlightenment, and decided it would be best to teach the Dharma to others, to give them the tools to reach Enlightenment as well. In order to do this, he had to announce that he did, indeed, have something to teach, that he'd reached a high state of realization. So his motivation in saying "I'm enlightened" was to help others, not to aggrandize himself. Correct motivation is key.

RebeccaS

I haven't watched this video, so I'm just hoping it has the required information, but the text implies that this is the interview where he says he isn't enlightened. http://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/04/is-the-dalai-lama-enlightened-no/

person

What is enlightenment?

There are several meanings for the word, so I think trying to find the answer to that question will help resolve your question.

Dakini

One thing I remember about HHDL is that he says he does become angry or frustrated sometimes, so he hasn't overcome obstacles to eliminating that. He's a humble guy, not above admitting to failings (however small). What impresses me most about him is his humility. As long as he has these little failings, his humility and honesty would prevent him from making such a big claim about himself, like that he's Enlightened.

RebeccaS

What is enlightenment?

There are several meanings for the word, so I think trying to find the answer to that question will help resolve your question.

Or you could just watch the video I posted where the Dalai Lama clearly states he's not enlightened.

He understands the meaning of the word and understands the question being asked.

That interview was a while ago and maybe it has changed now, but you can't wash what he said with "the word has many meanings".

person

What is enlightenment?

There are several meanings for the word, so I think trying to find the answer to that question will help resolve your question.

Or you could just watch the video I posted where the Dalai Lama clearly states he's not enlightened.

He understands the meaning of the word and understands the question being asked.

That interview was a while ago and maybe it has changed now, but you can't wash what he said with "the word has many meanings".

Well I guess it partly depends upon your tradition but in Mahayana the enlightenment of an arhat is different than the enlightenment of a stream enterer bodhisattva is different than the enlightenment of a fully enlightened Buddha. In the interview (and I've heard HHDL say the same thing on several occasions) which type of enlightenment is he referring to?

RebeccaS

@person You're getting too caught up in semantics. He understands the spirit of the question, and he understands the generic, lay persons understanding of the word enlightenment and knows that to the average person it is used to describe the state of Buddhahood.

You're tying to interpret his answer and get it to mold to a question that he wasn't asked.

person

@person You're getting too caught up in semantics. He understands the spirit of the question, and he understands the generic, lay persons understanding of the word enlightenment and knows that to the average person it is used to describe the state of Buddhahood.

You're tying to interpret his answer and get it to mold to a question that he wasn't asked.

I'm not so sure the average person even knows what Buddhahood is and that they equate enlightenment with it. But if what he means by not being enlightened that he's not a Buddha then with my understanding of what it means to be a Buddha, I'd agree.

person

@RebeccaS You're new to the forum, but if you hang out for a while I think you'll come to see that what enlightenment is is far from agreed upon.

RebeccaS

@RebeccaS You're new to the forum, but if you hang out for a while I think you'll come to see that what enlightenment is is far from agreed upon.

I'm sure it's not, but that's not what the Dalai Lama was saying. He wasn't debating the meaning of the word to different sects or people, he answered a straightforward question in what I see to be a straightforward way.

person

@RebeccaS You're new to the forum, but if you hang out for a while I think you'll come to see that what enlightenment is is far from agreed upon.

I'm sure it's not, but that's not what the Dalai Lama was saying. He wasn't debating the meaning of the word to different sects or people, he answered a straightforward question in what I see to be a straightforward way.

Ok, my original post was directed to the OP and he was comparing HHDL and Adyashanti and wondering about enlightenment, so I think asking what the definition of enlightenment is, or how each of these people defines it is perfectly reasonable.

RebeccaS

@person Fair enough. I thought you were just questioning what the Dalai Lama said and over complicating it. My apologies.

Geoff-Allen

Hi there!

Interesting thread.

He has wisdom regardless of whether he considers himself enlightened ...

Here's a great page about him -

http://www.livinglifefully.com/thinkersdalailama.htm

Cheers

Geoff-Allen

Found an interestin blog -

http://onehumanjourney.blogspot.com.au/search/label/enlightenment

Enjoy!

Dakini

in Mahayana the enlightenment of an arhat is different than the enlightenment of a stream enterer bodhisattva is different than the enlightenment of a fully enlightened Buddha. In the interview (and I've heard HHDL say the same thing on several occasions) which type of enlightenment is he referring to?

Could you elaborate on this? It sounds interesting.

seeker242

Hi all- in another post it was mentioned that ' the Dalai Lama isn't enlightened he'd said so himself'.. I too have read stuff where he implies that-
But if he were enlightened would he have any need to say so? Doesn't an enlightened person realize there's no self or other so how could an enlightened person announce ' I'm enlightened' when they Know there's no 'I'?

Chapter 9 of the Diamond Sutra addresses this. http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamond_sutra_text/page9.html

person

in Mahayana the enlightenment of an arhat is different than the enlightenment of a stream enterer bodhisattva is different than the enlightenment of a fully enlightened Buddha. In the interview (and I've heard HHDL say the same thing on several occasions) which type of enlightenment is he referring to?

Could you elaborate on this? It sounds interesting.

Someone who frees themselves from the bonds of ego clinging attains nirvana and is called an arhat. In mahayana there is the path of a bodhisattva that vows to not attain individual liberation but to stay and help others free themselves. There are 10 levels, or bhumis, on the bodhisattva path. A bodhisattva entering the first stage, the path of seeing, is said to have insight into the true nature of reality (emptiness). On the path they perfect the 6 virtues and there are said to be subtle imprints of past karma on the mind stream that obstruct knowledge. A buddha is said to have removed all those imprints, obtained omniscience and is therefore perfectly capable of helping others.