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Some years ago, I had a client who had suffered for a number of years from M.E. This person was bedridden, in a darkened room which had to be kept at 37 degrees. No medication or therapy appeared to make any improvement - indeed, every intervention only seemed to aggravate the condition. I used to visit two or three times a week, sitting in the pitch black, talking.
Then, one day, I called and found my friend hanging from a dressing-gown cord from the back of a door. How they had managed it, I shall never know. It must have taken such courage and strength! Just getting out of bed was a terrible struggle.
I was asked to speak at the funeral. Every other speaker had avoided any mention of the death, only concentrating on the 'good' things of a life. I spoke of the darkness and how we, who carried on visiting, were invited into the darkest places but we could walk away again - and did. I wept for a life so destroyed by illness.
After the funeral, the celebrant refused even to shake my hand!!!
Some years ago, I had a client who had suffered for a number of years from M.E. This person was bedridden, in a darkened room which had to be kept at 37 degrees. No medication or therapy appeared to make any improvement - indeed, every intervention only seemed to aggravate the condition. I used to visit two or three times a week, sitting in the pitch black, talking.
Then, one day, I called and found my friend hanging from a dressing-gown cord from the back of a door. How they had managed it, I shall never know. It must have taken such courage and strength! Just getting out of bed was a terrible struggle.
I was asked to speak at the funeral. Every other speaker had avoided any mention of the death, only concentrating on the 'good' things of a life. I spoke of the darkness and how we, who carried on visiting, were invited into the darkest places but we could walk away again - and did. I wept for a life so destroyed by illness.
After the funeral, the celebrant refused even to shake my hand!!! The family, however, thanked me. As my friend's elderly father said: "At least one person spoke the truth."
Suicide is not a single event, it is a personal choice and one which we cannot judge because the protagonist is no longer with us to clarify what brought them to this place.
yea i think that christian society doesn't like telling the truth and instead belittles ppl when they die by acting like life for them was a fairy tale, and they never did anything 'wrong'
christian's believe too much that their own truth is everyones, a lot have superman complexe's
ppl saying suicide is evil, sinful .. have no experience of whats its like to feel so little self worth, to feel so sad and empty.. so lonely.. with nothing.. except pain.. with no future and a painful past ..nothing to redeem themselves... all they need is something to lean on, someone to hold.. a hug and some hope
ppl shy away from whats really there.. thinking everyone should act like themselves.. and they think that speaking of anything like death or pain is being pessimistic and morbid... they refuse to listen to those in pain.. those with depression
these people cause more suffering and they are weak.. they do not know how to live or treat others.. they push others away
yea i think that christian society doesn't like telling the truth and instead belittles ppl when they die by acting like life for them was a fairy tale, and they never did anything 'wrong'
christian's believe too much that their own truth is everyones, a lot have superman complexe's
ppl saying suicide is evil, sinful .. have no experience of whats its like to feel so little self worth, to feel so sad and empty.. so lonely.. with nothing.. except pain.. with no future and a painful past ..nothing to redeem themselves... all they need is something to lean on, someone to hold.. a hug and some hope
ppl shy away from whats really there.. thinking everyone should act like themselves.. and they think that speaking of anything like death or pain is being pessimistic and morbid... they refuse to listen to those in pain.. those with depression
these people cause more suffering and they are weak.. they do not know how to live or treat others.. they push others away
I quoted and emphasised your post, Celebrin, because I noticed that you spend a great deal of energy writing about "them", other people, and "their" defects. I would invite you to see that what you perceive in others may be no more (nor any less) than a reflection (or projection) of what is in you.
As you appear to have a visceral dislike of the Abrahamic scriptures, perhaps you would like to consider the following words from the Dhammapada:
Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox. Mind is the forerunner of (all good) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind, AFFECTION follows one, even as one's shadow that never leaves. ``He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who harbour such thoughts hatred is not appeased. ``He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'' in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred is appeased. Hate is not overcome by hate; by Love (Metta) alone is hate appeased. This is an eternal law.
There is no peace of mind to be found in considering ourselves any better than another.
yea.. but there are ppl who think that way... i know its a limited number and theres more to them.. and that they are essentially the same as me.. but they just don't understand .. it gets to me you know
i just don't think theres enough ppl in the world with spirit, kindness and understanding.. w/e words u wanna add.. i think europes a very selfish materilistic place.. on the whole
yea.. but there are ppl who think that way... i know its a limited number and theres more to them.. and that they are essentially the same as me.. but they just don't understand .. it gets to me you know
i just don't think theres enough ppl in the world with spirit, kindness and understanding.. w/e words u wanna add.. i think europes a very selfish materilistic place.. on the whole
I'd say the entire Western world is very influenced by the need for "stuff," not just Europe. The only place we could probably avoid materialism is the middle of the Sahara...and even there, I'm sure there are a few McDonald's.
I feel the same way sometimes, but we just have to better ourselves, in the hope that others might see the good in the Middle Path as well and follow us.
I spent many years (10 to be exact) in evangelical churches in America. I thought they were all selfish and self centered and couldn't care less about the poor or afflicted. All they cared about was their house, 2.5 kids, white picket fence, and lots of money to care for themselves.
A few years after I left the church, I ended up realizing the hate problem was mine to solve. Sure, there are people that are that way in the Christian Churches, and the Islamic churches, and even BUDDHIST TEMPLES!!!! Forgiving them their sins helped me to move on and begin to see them as people like me trying to get along in this world. We may be on different paths, but that doesn't make them inherently more selfish than I. It means that we have more in common than I might like to admit.
What I have done with it is to remember these (which is starting to include every one)are people that are suffering, just like I am. It might not look the same but it is. If I particularly dislike someone, I will practice the "metta bhavana" until my attitude has changed. Two people I thought I would never get along with are now friends of mine because I took the time to change my attitude. And they are lovely people. I let go of my attitude and let them be them. That brought peace to me.
Don't worry, Celebrin. As you go along you'll find that you will be able to remain unaffected by these things. It just takes a little practice and you'll get there, I have no doubt.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited July 2006
Celebrin, we're all here to help one another, and when someone puts forward a "problem" we'll all try, with open hearts and minds, to offer a variety of viewpoints and 'solutions'..... This said, I don't think any one of us, hand on heart, can say with all honesty and sincerity that we are never affected as you are, to some degree or another... we all experience this wave of irritation, impatience, anger....call it what you will.....
The point is, Right Effort..... Coupled as ever with every other one of the 'Spokes of the Wheel'....
Being conscious of our own shortcomings (evaluated and judges as being so, by us, not by others) is a start to recognition. We are all less than perfect. we just know it, recognise it, and deal with it as Wisely, Compassionately and Lovingly as we can.
AS much as I liked Nirvana - my current state of "self" has a hard time with people who chicken out and commit suicide.
-bf
I know that for myself, I have been in places that were at least as dark as where he was. In the grips of addiction there are no doors or windows, it is a very sad lonely place indeed.
yea i had 2 kids coming in yesterday to work,.. mocking me and making jokes about abusing disabled kids..
sigh.. i couldn't be bothered to be angry so i just let their ignorance pass me by.. and i told them that its just wrong to talk abotu abusing disabled ppl..
they are really pathetic, i just don't like it.. but its to too hard to change ppl.. its easier for them to do it themselves.. and i don't think the majority of ppl will ever change.. i've seen enough angry, fearful ppl with no will to change..
sad thing is a lot of ppl with no self esteem think they will make things worse by strengthening their faith or actually reading books that promote self help or understanding.. me mom is one of them..
so little faith in herself she doubts what she hears and see's.. thinks and so on
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited July 2006
Celebrin,
it reminds me of the story of the three monks who want to get to a fine sandy beach, but have to negotiate a wide band of sharp pebbles and stones to do so....
The first suggests wrapping each individual stone in cotton and silk....
the second states that would be too long and tedious and says instead, they should fetch hundreds of carpets and lay them down....
The third says:
"Why don't we just put our sandals on?"
You can never hope to change the whole world to make you comfortable.
It's unworkable, impractical, time-consuming, thankless and unnecessary....
All you can do, is change yourself.....
ohh yea it just not the greatest enviro when you are surrounded like ppl like that
ive thought of going to a buddhist retreat place.. so i don't have to be around such ppl like that..
A break, in silence, with meditation and service, can be just what we need at times. It can give us the inner silence that we need in order to cope with the "slings and arrows".
One of the most useful questions that I ever ask myself is: "What can I get to meet my need to be calm and compassionate in this situation?" I carry a small mala in my pocket so that I can use it as a 'anchor' for the more fruitful and specific state of mind.
Being nosey, Celebrin, what state of mind would you prefer to inhabit? Can you practise it, at rest? Can you imagine it, very specifically, using all your senses to identify it for yourself? Would you like to be able to access that state whenever you like?
I do that, too, Celebrin. Mostly I ask myself "what do you have to be happy about?" and in comparison with the majority of the world's population I have sooooo much it's ridiculous.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited July 2006
This is weird....
I used to get asked why and how I always seemed to manage to have a sunny disposition, and my response was always as follows:
" I wake up in the morning, and think to myself,
'Do I have something to be truly happy about?
Or, do I have something to be truly miserable about?'
If the answer is 'No' to both - then I figure it's better to be happy for nothing, than miserable for nothing!"
My attitude has progressed since then, but basically, it's still as valid and logical....
Comments
Then, one day, I called and found my friend hanging from a dressing-gown cord from the back of a door. How they had managed it, I shall never know. It must have taken such courage and strength! Just getting out of bed was a terrible struggle.
I was asked to speak at the funeral. Every other speaker had avoided any mention of the death, only concentrating on the 'good' things of a life. I spoke of the darkness and how we, who carried on visiting, were invited into the darkest places but we could walk away again - and did. I wept for a life so destroyed by illness.
After the funeral, the celebrant refused even to shake my hand!!!
Then, one day, I called and found my friend hanging from a dressing-gown cord from the back of a door. How they had managed it, I shall never know. It must have taken such courage and strength! Just getting out of bed was a terrible struggle.
I was asked to speak at the funeral. Every other speaker had avoided any mention of the death, only concentrating on the 'good' things of a life. I spoke of the darkness and how we, who carried on visiting, were invited into the darkest places but we could walk away again - and did. I wept for a life so destroyed by illness.
After the funeral, the celebrant refused even to shake my hand!!! The family, however, thanked me. As my friend's elderly father said: "At least one person spoke the truth."
Suicide is not a single event, it is a personal choice and one which we cannot judge because the protagonist is no longer with us to clarify what brought them to this place.
christian's believe too much that their own truth is everyones, a lot have superman complexe's
ppl saying suicide is evil, sinful .. have no experience of whats its like to feel so little self worth, to feel so sad and empty.. so lonely.. with nothing.. except pain.. with no future and a painful past ..nothing to redeem themselves... all they need is something to lean on, someone to hold.. a hug and some hope
ppl shy away from whats really there.. thinking everyone should act like themselves.. and they think that speaking of anything like death or pain is being pessimistic and morbid... they refuse to listen to those in pain.. those with depression
these people cause more suffering and they are weak.. they do not know how to live or treat others.. they push others away
Verb. sap.
Verb. sap.? I thought it to meant switching them, their, and they so often as to confuse the reader. Please correct me.
M.E. is Myalgic Encephalopathy. I think you probably call it Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS)?
Sas
I quoted and emphasised your post, Celebrin, because I noticed that you spend a great deal of energy writing about "them", other people, and "their" defects. I would invite you to see that what you perceive in others may be no more (nor any less) than a reflection (or projection) of what is in you.
As you appear to have a visceral dislike of the Abrahamic scriptures, perhaps you would like to consider the following words from the Dhammapada:
There is no peace of mind to be found in considering ourselves any better than another.
i just don't think theres enough ppl in the world with spirit, kindness and understanding.. w/e words u wanna add.. i think europes a very selfish materilistic place.. on the whole
I feel the same way sometimes, but we just have to better ourselves, in the hope that others might see the good in the Middle Path as well and follow us.
I spent many years (10 to be exact) in evangelical churches in America. I thought they were all selfish and self centered and couldn't care less about the poor or afflicted. All they cared about was their house, 2.5 kids, white picket fence, and lots of money to care for themselves.
A few years after I left the church, I ended up realizing the hate problem was mine to solve. Sure, there are people that are that way in the Christian Churches, and the Islamic churches, and even BUDDHIST TEMPLES!!!! Forgiving them their sins helped me to move on and begin to see them as people like me trying to get along in this world. We may be on different paths, but that doesn't make them inherently more selfish than I. It means that we have more in common than I might like to admit.
What I have done with it is to remember these (which is starting to include every one)are people that are suffering, just like I am. It might not look the same but it is. If I particularly dislike someone, I will practice the "metta bhavana" until my attitude has changed. Two people I thought I would never get along with are now friends of mine because I took the time to change my attitude. And they are lovely people. I let go of my attitude and let them be them. That brought peace to me.
i just sometimes.. can't help but be slightly affected
The point is, Right Effort..... Coupled as ever with every other one of the 'Spokes of the Wheel'....
Being conscious of our own shortcomings (evaluated and judges as being so, by us, not by others) is a start to recognition. We are all less than perfect. we just know it, recognise it, and deal with it as Wisely, Compassionately and Lovingly as we can.
I know that for myself, I have been in places that were at least as dark as where he was. In the grips of addiction there are no doors or windows, it is a very sad lonely place indeed.
sigh.. i couldn't be bothered to be angry so i just let their ignorance pass me by.. and i told them that its just wrong to talk abotu abusing disabled ppl..
they are really pathetic, i just don't like it.. but its to too hard to change ppl.. its easier for them to do it themselves.. and i don't think the majority of ppl will ever change.. i've seen enough angry, fearful ppl with no will to change..
sad thing is a lot of ppl with no self esteem think they will make things worse by strengthening their faith or actually reading books that promote self help or understanding.. me mom is one of them..
so little faith in herself she doubts what she hears and see's.. thinks and so on
it reminds me of the story of the three monks who want to get to a fine sandy beach, but have to negotiate a wide band of sharp pebbles and stones to do so....
The first suggests wrapping each individual stone in cotton and silk....
the second states that would be too long and tedious and says instead, they should fetch hundreds of carpets and lay them down....
The third says:
"Why don't we just put our sandals on?"
You can never hope to change the whole world to make you comfortable.
It's unworkable, impractical, time-consuming, thankless and unnecessary....
All you can do, is change yourself.....
ive thought of going to a buddhist retreat place.. so i don't have to be around such ppl like that..
A break, in silence, with meditation and service, can be just what we need at times. It can give us the inner silence that we need in order to cope with the "slings and arrows".
One of the most useful questions that I ever ask myself is: "What can I get to meet my need to be calm and compassionate in this situation?" I carry a small mala in my pocket so that I can use it as a 'anchor' for the more fruitful and specific state of mind.
Being nosey, Celebrin, what state of mind would you prefer to inhabit? Can you practise it, at rest? Can you imagine it, very specifically, using all your senses to identify it for yourself? Would you like to be able to access that state whenever you like?
i do want to be in that mindset.. i think.. its hard to say i'm not sure its the answer you know.. but i do feel better when im in it
i say to myself.. "why have i got to be sad about " when i don't have a smile
I used to get asked why and how I always seemed to manage to have a sunny disposition, and my response was always as follows:
" I wake up in the morning, and think to myself,
'Do I have something to be truly happy about?
Or, do I have something to be truly miserable about?'
If the answer is 'No' to both - then I figure it's better to be happy for nothing, than miserable for nothing!"
My attitude has progressed since then, but basically, it's still as valid and logical....