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@Silouan Too much stuff here to address in one post but...
I know from experience the existence of formless beings not of this realm where that motivation is clear, but not of literal possession, but of action and influence. I too have first hand experience of such "forces" but have found them best addressed with compassion, empathy, sympathy & love.
The intent or purpose of the Koan is not to create fear but provide liberation. The koan of daily life can be described as any difficulty that seems intrinsic to one's being and is almost too difficult to deal with. I think you are referring to the Rinzai description of Koan which is usually teacher supplied, and is different from my meaning here.
These beings, whose form is not visible to us but the results of their actions are, have intent of causing fear and harm whether physical or psychological in others. Their actions we call demonic and associate that label to the perceived source as well. You can use another label, but it doesn’t affect the results. The purpose of my posting was to remove the Woo Woo factor which tends to give rise to a polarized Ego identity view of self and other. While the combative or adversarial approach is definitely endemic to the human condition and many religions, it has little to do with the path to the cessation of suffering. I have found that nothing manifests more surely in transformative or enlightened change than extreme suffering when faced with kindness. Those results are the ones which interest me. It's not about holding onto positions or labels but in being able to let go of them. Whether or not one believes in the meditative experience of selflessness which challenges the very conception of self and other, the medicine and treatment for dealing with the inertia of ignorance remains the same. (whatever the source).
You know, they used to think that people suffering with epilepsy were possessed by some demon or demonic spirits. It's daft, don't believe it.
Some people see the dead, in their head. Some have experiences based on resonance with the land of woo woo, impureland, valhallah or station nine and three quarters. http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Platform_Nine_and_Three-Quarters Give the fearful or other realm invaders no entry. Focus on the beneficial. How has given the means in his post previous to this one. We have the means and the resources.
Sile has a point. However I don't think it's entirely out of the question for a pure evil energy to exist; it's not conventional by any means. It would have had to be conceived as evil from the very beginning.
i just wanted to raise this issue - what were we from the very beginning? According to Christianity, we were pure then we got tainted cos of the apple (thanks a bunch, Eve). What about in Buddhism? All i have heard so far is beginningless time, but why i am interested is - if we were all pure at the beginning, then how did we deteriorate to the mush of crap (good and bad) that we are in now? If we are Buddhas, we cannot deteriorate to become non-Buddhas, right? So what were we in the beginning? Were we created with mush?
Shakyamuni is the fourth Buddha so there were other Buddhas before him...was that on our plane of existence? Our earth? Or a different realm?
I was listening to an audio talk by the Dalai Lama the other day, and contrary to widely held belief, he didn't say Dorje Shugden propitiates should not attend his teachings. In fact he said they are completely free to attend his teachings. However, they should not take initiations from him, since this would break samaya. One should never take initiations from a teacher against whom one harbors doubts or disagreements, since this is harmful to both student and teacher.
I think it's a shame the disinformation has been spread that Dorje Shugden propitiates are banned or even unwelcome; I've been to multiple teachings by HHDL and never have I been asked anything about my personal practices before being allowed in.
The advice on not taking initiations from teachers with whom one disagrees is a very old and accepted one, and applies to multiple issues, not just this one.
I know you were talking about being allowed to take teachings but not initiations but what i'd like to raise is that's fine for you and i who don't have to be suffer because of the Dorje Shugden ban.
In this heart-wrenching letter, he talks about a letter he received which called him to stop his Dorje Shugden practice and that the letter also mentioned that "we must make sure to cut off all Dharmic and worldly connections with people who pray to Gyalchen (Dorje Shugden) Protector."
Please read the letter by Kensur Sonam Gyaltsen. He has left his beloved monastery because he refused to give up his holy practice. The ban IS real. The ban is the reason why Gaden Shartse was divided into two - a group of monks who wished to remain loyal to their practice left their monk brothers and started their own monastery, Shar Gaden. These two groups are not allowed to talk to each other.
Great masters of the Gelugpa tradition like HH Trijang Rinpoche are not accepted into mainstream Buddhism because of the Dorje Shugden issue. The thing is you cannot say that this Lama is wonderful, he is a Buddha, but he was wrong about Dorje Shugden.
@how I see your points, and don't necessarily disagree. I wasn't denying the need for compassion. I was merely responding to the questions you posited based on my own personal observation and experiences, some of which occurred over twenty years ago when I was just beginning my life as a Buddhist.
If something like that ever occurs again will the hair on my body rise up again as an innate warning coming from the natural instinct of my species when potential danger or harm is sensed or near? I don't know, but that doesn't mean I lack compassion for those beings or any others intent on causing harm. Things change, and I don't see things the same way I did then or even a few months ago. I do know that in order to begin to have compassion for others and oneself is to understand the nature and reasons for our condition. I can look back on those experiences without animosity.
However, compassion and understanding don’t mean being a door mat for someone's abuse. Sometimes it takes firmness and strong counter measures to protect one and others too provided it is done with proper motivation.
I love this particular folk tale about a Samaria warrior. He was to fulfill his duty by killing his lord's adversary. When he tracked the adversary down he cornered him and drew his sword. The adversary shaking in fear reacted by spitting in the face of Samurai. The Samurai sheathed his weapon and walked away, because he would have been acting now out of anger.
It is a fact that we don't live in isolation from others and we will always in some degree displace or cause suffering for others without any intent or motivation to do so as long as we have life in us, because life feeds off of life and that's just the way it is, but we also depend on the help and kindness of others to support our life too. If someone is drowning in a lake their life could be very dependent on someone else providing them help.
I'm baffled; despite the teachings of interdependence in Buddhism, that there are at times exhibited too much emphasis and speak about the point of view of this self in isolation within Buddhist circles. I'm not saying that this is what you are doing though. This is just a general observation.
I was listening to an audio talk by the Dalai Lama the other day, and contrary to widely held belief, he didn't say Dorje Shugden propitiates should not attend his teachings. In fact he said they are completely free to attend his teachings. However, they should not take initiations from him, since this would break samaya. One should never take initiations from a teacher against whom one harbors doubts or disagreements, since this is harmful to both student and teacher.
I think it's a shame the disinformation has been spread that Dorje Shugden propitiates are banned or even unwelcome; I've been to multiple teachings by HHDL and never have I been asked anything about my personal practices before being allowed in.
The advice on not taking initiations from teachers with whom one disagrees is a very old and accepted one, and applies to multiple issues, not just this one.
I know you were talking about being allowed to take teachings but not initiations but what i'd like to raise is that's fine for you and i who don't have to be suffer because of the Dorje Shugden ban.
In this heart-wrenching letter, he talks about a letter he received which called him to stop his Dorje Shugden practice and that the letter also mentioned that "we must make sure to cut off all Dharmic and worldly connections with people who pray to Gyalchen (Dorje Shugden) Protector."
Please read the letter by Kensur Sonam Gyaltsen. He has left his beloved monastery because he refused to give up his holy practice. The ban IS real. The ban is the reason why Gaden Shartse was divided into two - a group of monks who wished to remain loyal to their practice left their monk brothers and started their own monastery, Shar Gaden. These two groups are not allowed to talk to each other.
Great masters of the Gelugpa tradition like HH Trijang Rinpoche are not accepted into mainstream Buddhism because of the Dorje Shugden issue. The thing is you cannot say that this Lama is wonderful, he is a Buddha, but he was wrong about Dorje Shugden.
This is actually untrue Dorje Shugden practitoners are not even welcome to attend his teachings I checked out the registration for the recent Lamrim teachings HHDL gave and in the registration it was fairly clear that in order to attend you should not be a practitoner of Dorje Shugden.
Question for you if practitioners are actually welcome to attend his teachings rather then initiations which notable Dorje Shugden practitioners turn up or feel welcome to do so ?
@caz that is a good point.. i don't think Dorje Shugden practitioners would turn up because they would NOT be welcome. This is the sad schismatic state of affairs Tibetan Buddhism has been reduced to, which is why it is so important for the ban on Dorje Shugden to be lifted.
Comments
Too much stuff here to address in one post but...
I know from experience the existence of formless beings not of this realm where that motivation is clear, but not of literal possession, but of action and influence.
I too have first hand experience of such "forces" but have found them best addressed with compassion, empathy, sympathy & love.
The intent or purpose of the Koan is not to create fear but provide liberation.
The koan of daily life can be described as any difficulty that seems intrinsic to one's being and is almost too difficult to deal with. I think you are referring to the Rinzai description of Koan which is usually teacher supplied, and is different from my meaning here.
These beings, whose form is not visible to us but the results of their actions are, have intent of causing fear and harm whether physical or psychological in others. Their actions we call demonic and associate that label to the perceived source as well. You can use another label, but it doesn’t affect the results.
The purpose of my posting was to remove the Woo Woo factor which tends to give rise to a polarized Ego identity view of self and other. While the combative or adversarial approach is definitely endemic to the human condition and many religions, it has little to do with the path to the cessation of suffering. I have found that nothing manifests more surely in transformative or enlightened change than extreme suffering when faced with kindness. Those results are the ones which interest me. It's not about holding onto positions or labels but in being able to let go of them. Whether or not one believes in the meditative experience of selflessness which challenges the very conception of self and other, the medicine and treatment for dealing with the inertia of ignorance remains the same. (whatever the source).
http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Platform_Nine_and_Three-Quarters
Give the fearful or other realm invaders no entry. Focus on the beneficial. How has given the means in his post previous to this one. We have the means and the resources.
Shakyamuni is the fourth Buddha so there were other Buddhas before him...was that on our plane of existence? Our earth? Or a different realm?
I'd just like to share this letter from a respected, senior Abbot emeritus of one of the tantric monasteries, Gyumed (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/controversy/articles-controversy/an-open-letter-to-gelug-monasteries-sangha-regarding-dorje-shugden/)
In this heart-wrenching letter, he talks about a letter he received which called him to stop his Dorje Shugden practice and that the letter also mentioned that "we must make sure to cut off all Dharmic and worldly connections with people who pray to Gyalchen (Dorje Shugden) Protector."
Please read the letter by Kensur Sonam Gyaltsen. He has left his beloved monastery because he refused to give up his holy practice. The ban IS real. The ban is the reason why Gaden Shartse was divided into two - a group of monks who wished to remain loyal to their practice left their monk brothers and started their own monastery, Shar Gaden. These two groups are not allowed to talk to each other.
Great masters of the Gelugpa tradition like HH Trijang Rinpoche are not accepted into mainstream Buddhism because of the Dorje Shugden issue. The thing is you cannot say that this Lama is wonderful, he is a Buddha, but he was wrong about Dorje Shugden.
I see your points, and don't necessarily disagree. I wasn't denying the need for compassion. I was merely responding to the questions you posited based on my own personal observation and experiences, some of which occurred over twenty years ago when I was just beginning my life as a Buddhist.
If something like that ever occurs again will the hair on my body rise up again as an innate warning coming from the natural instinct of my species when potential danger or harm is sensed or near? I don't know, but that doesn't mean I lack compassion for those beings or any others intent on causing harm. Things change, and I don't see things the same way I did then or even a few months ago. I do know that in order to begin to have compassion for others and oneself is to understand the nature and reasons for our condition. I can look back on those experiences without animosity.
However, compassion and understanding don’t mean being a door mat for someone's abuse. Sometimes it takes firmness and strong counter measures to protect one and others too provided it is done with proper motivation.
I love this particular folk tale about a Samaria warrior. He was to fulfill his duty by killing his lord's adversary. When he tracked the adversary down he cornered him and drew his sword. The adversary shaking in fear reacted by spitting in the face of Samurai. The Samurai sheathed his weapon and walked away, because he would have been acting now out of anger.
It is a fact that we don't live in isolation from others and we will always in some degree displace or cause suffering for others without any intent or motivation to do so as long as we have life in us, because life feeds off of life and that's just the way it is, but we also depend on the help and kindness of others to support our life too. If someone is drowning in a lake their life could be very dependent on someone else providing them help.
I'm baffled; despite the teachings of interdependence in Buddhism, that there are at times exhibited too much emphasis and speak about the point of view of this self in isolation within Buddhist circles. I'm not saying that this is what you are doing though. This is just a general observation.
Question for you if practitioners are actually welcome to attend his teachings rather then initiations which notable Dorje Shugden practitioners turn up or feel welcome to do so ?