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Chicken vs fish
Invincible_summer
Heavy Metal DhammaWe(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian-turned-pescetarian. I started to eat fish because I had a very hard time eating healthily as a lacto-ovo (basically replacing meat with cheese and nuts and bread), gained lots of weight, and constantly felt hungry and unsatisfied. I don't need any lectures on how to be a "better" vegetarian/vegan or special recipes... I've tried. Anyways, after I started eating fish, I noticed that I can actually eat more "normally" now - no being ravenously hungry at odd times of the day and stuffing my face with empty calories in order to feel full, no feeling sick at the sight of chickpeas and broccoli.
I originally became a vegetarian on moral grounds; after going the pescetarian route, I've been justifying it by saying that fish are less sentient than chickens so I can eat them. Plus, I went with the logic "I won't eat what I wouldn't be comfortable killing myself."
But lately, I've been thinking that the fish industry is pretty horrible on the environment and was wondering if chickens (esp locally-raised free range chickens) would be more environmentally friendly, although they are (arguably) more sentient than fish.
I feel more morally comfortable eating fish, but knowing the environmental impact of bycatch and trawling sort of makes me uneasy; while fishing and fish production is obviously less harmful in terms of emissions and pollution (no manure lagoons here), the impact on the oceans in other ways is pretty severe.
Plus, the "don't eat what you wouldn't kill" thing really doesn't work with me and chickens. I wouldn't be able to kill a chicken!
Anyone with some stats on the environmental impact of chicken vs fish (not stuff on carbon emissions though... I can only seem to find that)? Or just some comments on my thought process here? I know an obvious response may be "Just go straight veg again!" and really, I only eat fish maybe 3-4 times a week in total, not for every meal. But at this point, I feel healthier than when I was lacto-ovo veg so...
I originally became a vegetarian on moral grounds; after going the pescetarian route, I've been justifying it by saying that fish are less sentient than chickens so I can eat them. Plus, I went with the logic "I won't eat what I wouldn't be comfortable killing myself."
But lately, I've been thinking that the fish industry is pretty horrible on the environment and was wondering if chickens (esp locally-raised free range chickens) would be more environmentally friendly, although they are (arguably) more sentient than fish.
I feel more morally comfortable eating fish, but knowing the environmental impact of bycatch and trawling sort of makes me uneasy; while fishing and fish production is obviously less harmful in terms of emissions and pollution (no manure lagoons here), the impact on the oceans in other ways is pretty severe.
Plus, the "don't eat what you wouldn't kill" thing really doesn't work with me and chickens. I wouldn't be able to kill a chicken!
Anyone with some stats on the environmental impact of chicken vs fish (not stuff on carbon emissions though... I can only seem to find that)? Or just some comments on my thought process here? I know an obvious response may be "Just go straight veg again!" and really, I only eat fish maybe 3-4 times a week in total, not for every meal. But at this point, I feel healthier than when I was lacto-ovo veg so...
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That means because I eat meat I allow the animals to have the potentiality for them to go on the path as well at some point.
This is coming from the basis that animals have potentially infinite suffering. They will be born and killed, born and killed.
We can just eat meat unconsciously and help feed this cycle. Or we can also eat meat and ritualize the eating of meat. Now this being has a karmic connection to the dharma, which is made by the consumption of the animal. Thus in the long run you're doing much more for the animal then avoidance and enjoyment.
But this is the tantric point of view and it goes at odds with the different vehicles.
But when it comes down to it. We construct views to justify whether or not we want to eat meat or not. We feel guilty because of our held views. Or we don't. And it is impossible not to hold a view. As even the indifference is a view.
So what I propose is to create a new narrative and justification for whether or not you want to eat meat or not. Also take account what tradition you follow, etc.
In Vajrayana eating meat is okay if it is done mindfully and with bodhisattva intentions. Because the view is wider and taking in some negative karma for the greater benefit of the animal is what the Mahayana path is about.
Just some thoughts for you.
And if you do choose to eat meat, there are more humane options for where you get your meat and how the animal was treated, etc. Probably a lot healthier as well.
Talk about a learning curve
I'm not so sure on the chicken vs fish for who is more sentient. Just because we don't understand something doesn't make it less sentient. I've had both chicken and fish (as pets) and I'm pretty sure I had fish that were more aware than the chickens were, lol.
You could go the route of eating salmon and other fish that are farmed fish, then they are not wild caught and not having quite the same impact on the natural environment in that way. Because of what they are fed, they are not as good for you as wild caught fish though (they are basically fed grains like any other farmed animal as opposed to eating their natural foods).
Another option if you live in an area that allows it, is to do your own fishing. We do this, but we live with rivers and lakes within walking distance of our house. It doens't work for everyone. And you'd be surprised, it's not as easy as you think. When you go fishing, you use baby animals as bait. Then you have to keep the fish you catch in the water until you are ready to clean them, so when you clean them, often they are still breathing. It's no less traumatic (to me anyhow) to clean fish than it is to clean birds. At least the birds are already dead (we have in the past hunted grouse).
Just things to think about, I don't know that the true overall difference between buying chicken or buying fish is going to be a big difference. They both have to be transported to where they are, unless you live right on the coast and can get fresh fish at a fish market. Even advertised 'cage free' chicken, are often not cage free,and not treated any better than factory farmed chicken. Also, chicken doesn't have the omega fats that fish has, so if you opt for chicken you might want to consider a omega supplement.
Here's an article on fish sentience:
http://www.globalanimal.org/2010/12/07/new-research-fish-feel-pain-too/26135/
My opposition to eating meat is mostly based on disgust at the USA's meat industry. I don't really feel that eating meat is wrong, per se, but I just feel sick thinking about contributing to that. I sometimes eat sushi (as in, sashimi) as my thoughts are that ocean caught fish is similar to free range animals, but I do realize that the impact on the environment is still awful. I don't know... it's a sticky situation I haven't really resolved for myself yet. But I do believe that I am contributing to the best of my ability by not eating meat, so eating sashimi once and a while maybe only makes me fallibly human...
@taiyaki: That's an interesting way of looking at things, the "most Buddhist" answer so far haha
It's also a lot for me to think about...
@karasti: Yes luckily I live on the west coast of Canada where salmon is pretty plentiful. However, fish farming does have negative impacts on the environment as well. But then again, what doesn't?
@seeker242: Yeah, I'm aware that "free-range" is an unregulated term. But that's what I mean - sourcing some locally-produced chicken that I know is actually free-range and not battery-cage.
The more I'm reading about this and thinking about it, the more I'm thinking there's no real difference...