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Chicken vs fish

Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal DhammaWe(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
edited August 2012 in Diet & Habits
I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian-turned-pescetarian. I started to eat fish because I had a very hard time eating healthily as a lacto-ovo (basically replacing meat with cheese and nuts and bread), gained lots of weight, and constantly felt hungry and unsatisfied. I don't need any lectures on how to be a "better" vegetarian/vegan or special recipes... I've tried. Anyways, after I started eating fish, I noticed that I can actually eat more "normally" now - no being ravenously hungry at odd times of the day and stuffing my face with empty calories in order to feel full, no feeling sick at the sight of chickpeas and broccoli.

I originally became a vegetarian on moral grounds; after going the pescetarian route, I've been justifying it by saying that fish are less sentient than chickens so I can eat them. Plus, I went with the logic "I won't eat what I wouldn't be comfortable killing myself."

But lately, I've been thinking that the fish industry is pretty horrible on the environment and was wondering if chickens (esp locally-raised free range chickens) would be more environmentally friendly, although they are (arguably) more sentient than fish.

I feel more morally comfortable eating fish, but knowing the environmental impact of bycatch and trawling sort of makes me uneasy; while fishing and fish production is obviously less harmful in terms of emissions and pollution (no manure lagoons here), the impact on the oceans in other ways is pretty severe.

Plus, the "don't eat what you wouldn't kill" thing really doesn't work with me and chickens. I wouldn't be able to kill a chicken!


Anyone with some stats on the environmental impact of chicken vs fish (not stuff on carbon emissions though... I can only seem to find that)? Or just some comments on my thought process here? I know an obvious response may be "Just go straight veg again!" and really, I only eat fish maybe 3-4 times a week in total, not for every meal. But at this point, I feel healthier than when I was lacto-ovo veg so...

Comments

  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    edited August 2012
    When I eat meat I am very thankful that this being can become a part of this body and mind. Because this body and mind is on the path towards enlightenment the animals that are consumed become karmically connected to the dharma.

    That means because I eat meat I allow the animals to have the potentiality for them to go on the path as well at some point.

    This is coming from the basis that animals have potentially infinite suffering. They will be born and killed, born and killed.

    We can just eat meat unconsciously and help feed this cycle. Or we can also eat meat and ritualize the eating of meat. Now this being has a karmic connection to the dharma, which is made by the consumption of the animal. Thus in the long run you're doing much more for the animal then avoidance and enjoyment.

    But this is the tantric point of view and it goes at odds with the different vehicles.

    But when it comes down to it. We construct views to justify whether or not we want to eat meat or not. We feel guilty because of our held views. Or we don't. And it is impossible not to hold a view. As even the indifference is a view.

    So what I propose is to create a new narrative and justification for whether or not you want to eat meat or not. Also take account what tradition you follow, etc.

    In Vajrayana eating meat is okay if it is done mindfully and with bodhisattva intentions. Because the view is wider and taking in some negative karma for the greater benefit of the animal is what the Mahayana path is about.

    Just some thoughts for you.

    And if you do choose to eat meat, there are more humane options for where you get your meat and how the animal was treated, etc. Probably a lot healthier as well.
  • I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian-turned-pescetarian
    omg I had no idea there were so many variations on the vegetarian diet! I thought it was you either eat meat or you don't eat meat :lol:

    Talk about a learning curve :)
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    edited August 2012
    I'm not going to tell you to go veg again, because I'm not veg myself, but the only thing fish has (compared to your ovo/lacto diet) is omega fats and protein, so you might feel better adding a good omega supplement to your diet. You have to have them for brain health as well as the heart health they are always touted for.

    I'm not so sure on the chicken vs fish for who is more sentient. Just because we don't understand something doesn't make it less sentient. I've had both chicken and fish (as pets) and I'm pretty sure I had fish that were more aware than the chickens were, lol.

    You could go the route of eating salmon and other fish that are farmed fish, then they are not wild caught and not having quite the same impact on the natural environment in that way. Because of what they are fed, they are not as good for you as wild caught fish though (they are basically fed grains like any other farmed animal as opposed to eating their natural foods).

    Another option if you live in an area that allows it, is to do your own fishing. We do this, but we live with rivers and lakes within walking distance of our house. It doens't work for everyone. And you'd be surprised, it's not as easy as you think. When you go fishing, you use baby animals as bait. Then you have to keep the fish you catch in the water until you are ready to clean them, so when you clean them, often they are still breathing. It's no less traumatic (to me anyhow) to clean fish than it is to clean birds. At least the birds are already dead (we have in the past hunted grouse).

    Just things to think about, I don't know that the true overall difference between buying chicken or buying fish is going to be a big difference. They both have to be transported to where they are, unless you live right on the coast and can get fresh fish at a fish market. Even advertised 'cage free' chicken, are often not cage free,and not treated any better than factory farmed chicken. Also, chicken doesn't have the omega fats that fish has, so if you opt for chicken you might want to consider a omega supplement.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited August 2012

    Plus, the "don't eat what you wouldn't kill" thing really doesn't work with me and chickens. I wouldn't be able to kill a chicken!
    The real horror stories in human history have usually required an "out of sight, out of mind" attitude. There is nothing like visiting a chicken raising & slaughtering house to put all that data you're asking for into prospective.
  • BeejBeej Human Being Veteran
    on land, i'd bet on the chicken... in the sea, i'd bet on the fish.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    the environmental impact of bycatch
    Yes, and us porpoises ( being mammals ) are getting very annoyed being lumped in with those common fish like cod and mackerel - so stop fishing or we'll chew up your nets!
  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    If only.....
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    esp locally-raised free range chickens
    It depends on where you live. In some places, the USA specifically, the "free-range" label can be completely meaningless. You really can't go by just the label. You have to get in touch with or learn of the particular farm independently from the claims being made on the label. Sometimes free range is actually free range, sometimes it's just the same as any other farm.
    The Consumer's Union on Free Range Labeling
    Consumers Union, publisher of Consumer Reports, is an independent, nonprofit testing and information organization serving only consumers. They are a comprehensive source for unbiased advice about products and services, personal finance, health and nutrition, and other consumer concerns. Since 1936, our mission has been to test products, inform the public, and protect consumers. Our income is derived solely from the sale of Consumer Reports and our other services, and from noncommercial contributions, grants, and fees.

    Consumer's Union "Free Range" Label Report Card (USA)

    How meaningful is the label? Not
    Is the label verified? No
    Is the meaning of the label consistent? No
    Are the label standards publicly available? No (1)
    Is the organization free from conflict of interest? No (2)
    Was the label developed with broad public and industry input? No

    1) There are no standards for the free range label.
    2) The producer or manufacturer decides whether to use the claim and is not free from its own self-interest.

    WHAT THIS GENERAL CLAIM MEANS:
    The USDA has defined "free range" or "free roaming" for poultry products but not for eggs. For other products carrying the "free range" label, there is no standard definition for this term.

    CONSUMERS UNION FINDINGS
    "Free range" is a popular label seen on eggs, chicken and other meat. Many shoppers think it means that the animal has spent a good portion of its life outdoors, grazing, foraging, dusting and running. Yet in reality, in the case of poultry for example, the government only requires that outdoor access be made available for "an undetermined period each day." That means that the door to the coop or stall could be opened for five minutes a day and if the animal(s) did not see the open door or chose not to leave--even everyday--it could still qualify as "free range."

    CONSUMERS UNION EVALUATION:
    Free range (or free roaming) is a general claim that implies that a meat or poultry product, including eggs, comes from an animal that was raised in the open air or was free to roam. Its use on beef is unregulated and there is no standard definition of this term. Free range is regulated by the USDA for use on poultry only (not eggs) and USDA requires that birds have been given access to the outdoors but for an undetermined period each day. USDA considers five minutes of open-air access each day to be adequate for it to approve use of the free range claim on a poultry product. "Free range" claims on eggs are not regulated at all. To learn more about what is meant by this term, consumers must contact the manufacturer.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    If only.....
    Just wait till we get the killer whales involved - they have big teeth! :p
  • zombiegirlzombiegirl beating the drum of the lifeless in a dry wasteland Veteran
    "I won't eat what I wouldn't be comfortable killing myself," is an interesting philosophy. I used to really enjoy fishing actually, but these days, I feel awful about it. Going home and visiting my family's farm, I always have the urge to go hit up the 'ol sink hole and catch a few... but even catching and releasing makes me feel awful for obvious reasons... But catching and releasing is part of fishing because everything you catch is not of appropriate size, oh well. Although my grandmother has no problem cooking up the fish I've caught, we are hardly in need and it's been a very long time since I've done this. I honestly think my urge to fish is linked to some sort of nostalgia about my grandfather who passed a few years back. But in actual application these days, I just cannot feel the same way about it.

    Here's an article on fish sentience:
    http://www.globalanimal.org/2010/12/07/new-research-fish-feel-pain-too/26135/

    My opposition to eating meat is mostly based on disgust at the USA's meat industry. I don't really feel that eating meat is wrong, per se, but I just feel sick thinking about contributing to that. I sometimes eat sushi (as in, sashimi) as my thoughts are that ocean caught fish is similar to free range animals, but I do realize that the impact on the environment is still awful. I don't know... it's a sticky situation I haven't really resolved for myself yet. But I do believe that I am contributing to the best of my ability by not eating meat, so eating sashimi once and a while maybe only makes me fallibly human...

  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    Thanks for the responses, everyone.

    @taiyaki: That's an interesting way of looking at things, the "most Buddhist" answer so far haha :p
    It's also a lot for me to think about...


    @karasti: Yes luckily I live on the west coast of Canada where salmon is pretty plentiful. However, fish farming does have negative impacts on the environment as well. But then again, what doesn't?


    @seeker242: Yeah, I'm aware that "free-range" is an unregulated term. But that's what I mean - sourcing some locally-produced chicken that I know is actually free-range and not battery-cage.



    The more I'm reading about this and thinking about it, the more I'm thinking there's no real difference...
  • Sorry, but the title of this thread made me think of this...
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