Dr. Tony Page speaks of the Buddha-Self

DaltheJigsaw

Dr. Tony Page, researcher for over 30 years into the 'Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra', speaks of the True Self of the Buddha, which is concealed within all beings and known as the 'Buddha Nature' or 'Tathagatagarbha'.
For more detailed information on the Buddha Nature, please visit http://www.nirvanasutra.net and also Dr. Page's website, 'Tathagatagarbha Buddhism', at http://www.webspawner.com/users/bodhisattva/, which gives full texts of some key Buddha-nature sutras.
If you wish to learn Buddhist meditation (of the Tibetan Dzogchen flavour), an excellent, very warm-hearted and knowledgeable teacher is Dr. Shenpen Hookham, a Buddhist lama and Oxford-trained scholar who generously provides free e-mail teachings on Buddhist meditation. You can find Dr. Hookham's website here: http://www.buddhism-connect.org/

Lotus21

Thank you for useful information.

Lotus21

This video by Dr. Tony Page answers the question posed. "Is Buddha nature same as Emptiness?".

According to Dr. Page's assertion the Buddha Nature is unequivocally not the same as Emptiness, the foundation of his understandings of the Buddha Nature based on Mahaparinirvana Sutra, since it is not based on the causes and conditions. However, our View of the Buddha Nature is based on the causes and conditions.

DaltheJigsaw

Welcome Lotus!

Sabre

I asked this in another thread, but got no answer, so here my question again: If Buddha nature "is always there", "a reality that is blissful and pure within us", where is it when you are unconscious?..

Lotus21

As a student of Buddhism I am very interested in the concept of Buddha Nature.
I am in a process of wanting to have a better and a deeper understanding of this concept.

Now a question to Sabre, how are we different when we are in the awake state vs non-awake state, in the state of unconsciouness. You think answer to this question might answer your question?

Sabre

Well the difference is there is consciousness or not.. So we can cognize things or not.

That doesn't answer the question though, because it wasn't really a question. It's sort of the point I was trying to make: If there is an everlasting always blissful kind of thing, it should always be there, not only sometimes. Otherwise it is impermanent, it's dependent upon condition, so it is part of the aggregates. If consciousness can disappear, for example when we get knocked unconscious, where is the Buddha-self?.. It's nowhere because, in my humble view, it was never there in the first place. If it were, it wouldn't be that dependent upon other conditions.

Metta!

SeaOfTranquility

Where does the sun go at night?

Nowhere.

Although our perception is that it disappeared. It is just that we are not aware of it's presence because we are facing away from it.

Sabre

So at least we can conclude Buddha-self itself is not percepient, not aware, because that's "us". But if there is no awareness, there is nothing left.

Songhill

Lotus21:

However, our View of the Buddha Nature is based on the causes and conditions.

You are, in essence, saying Buddha-nature is a dependent origination (pratitya-samutpada). Is this correct?

SeaOfTranquility

I don't know who this Buddha self is. (I need to watch the vidio)

But I would say one is aware of what one is aware of at any given time.

taiyaki

mirages!

if taken to be real there is something there and something there to lose.

if not taken to be anything.

well then, impermanence, permanence.

off with their heads!

Lotus21

Lotus21:

However, our View of the Buddha Nature is based on the causes and conditions.
You are, in essence, saying Buddha-nature is a dependent origination (pratitya-samutpada). Is this correct?

Songhill,
I am not making any kind of statement here.

Based on Dr. Tony Pages who has been studying 'Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra', there is a Buddha Nature within all of us that is independent of causes and conditions. Thus the claim Buddha Nature is emptiness can not be made made. This is my inference based on the video. I kind of want to accept based on just intuition.
He also states that in our mind, we perceive the Buddha Nature through causes and conditions.

Sabre

SeaOfTranquility said:

I don't know who this Buddha self is. (I need to watch the vidio)

But I would say one is aware of what one is aware of at any given time.

Yes, quite obviously.

But to compare the proposed Buddha-self with the sun is not a fair comparision. Why not? Because if there were a Buddha-self, it would be our 'true identity', 'true self' so it would be a part of our experience, not something outside such as the sun. So the simile doesn't really hold.

So if there can be no experience in an unconscious state, that would infer there is no 'true experience' or 'Buddha-self'.

I don't see how anybody could get around that other than just leave it aside or deny it..

Not to offend or put anyone down. Just trying to help.

Metta!
Sabre

Cloud

I think "True Nature" speaks much more to the reality of Buddha-Nature than "True Self". A Buddha is functioning in accord with true nature and attaches to nothing as self or other; they have blended into the all, dissolved into emptiness, and don't consider there to be truly separate things or beings in the first place, so there's no one and no-thing to have a self or be a self.

Rujin

Not to be unpleasant, but talking about ourselves and our true nature.

SeaOfTranquility

Oh. OK.

I think whenever we try to identify with a thing we call self we are headed off in the wrong direction. I, me, mine is always followed by attachment then suffering.

True Self is No Self. Many people do not like the term "no self" because they equate it to annihilation, but they do not see that the present moment is eternal.
It is what the Middle Way points to. Between eternalism and annihilation. Examination of the aggregates shows it. We are process. Inter-dependently originated present moment process. Not limited to any concept of self except by our own clinging. Self is an idea we impose on experience after the fact. The freedom that results from being aware of this can be called the realization of Buddha Nature. The truth or a realization (like the sun ) does not go away because you don't see it right now.

Best Wishes

Rujin

Not being unpleasent in pointing that no-self is emptiness and emptiness (unlike the sun) is always there.

Cloud

SeaOfTranquility said:

We are process. Inter-dependently originated present moment process. Not limited to any concept of self except by our own clinging. Self is an idea we impose on experience after the fact. The freedom that results from being aware of this can be called the realization of Buddha Nature.

:bowdown: