Intent

vinlyn

I am reading a biography about King Bhumipohl of Thailand. It's interesting because he sees himself as a dhammaraja king.

But I was particularly interested in what I read last evening. He has stated that be believes action by intent is not understood. That an action based on intent, with a lack of knowledge -- in general or in terms of Buddhist principles -- generates negative karma.

That does seem to be a bit beyond what we sometimes discuss here on forum.

person

That's something I haven't heard of, its interesting though. I don't think I fully understand the idea, could you try to spell it out a little bit more, maybe give an example?

Jeffrey

I think one of the 10 unskilfull actions is ignorance. And it is the worst one because it results in trying to do positive but really doing negative. It is the most important one of the list to uproot. I couldn't find these on wikipedia.

Silouan

All action that affects one's experience is Karmic be it positive, nuetral, or negative. Karma goes through various stages to completion. Volition or intent has a significant, but does not necessary apply to negative actions.

It can involve any number of the basic aspects like thought, intent, action, satisfaction or remorse at having completed the deed, and/or the dedication of positive deeds for the benefit of all. Perhaps someone had strong intent but was interupted in preventing the deed or if two identical negative deeds had been committed and went through the same aspects, but at the completing stage one was with satisfication the other was with remorse. The potential impact would be experienced far less for the latter. Suppose some one was forced to do a negative act they did not intend and had remorse after having committed.

These are some of the things to keep in mind when considering Karma, but I think that's it in a nutshell, and you can probably figure out the rest. It is one of the most difficult topics in Buddhism.

vinlyn

person said:

That's something I haven't heard of, its interesting though. I don't think I fully understand the idea, could you try to spell it out a little bit more, maybe give an example?

The example I thought of was a doctor, who diagnoses me, treats me, and makes me sicker because he didn't know of new advances in medicine...which he should keep up on.

taiyaki

What exactly is meant by a lack of knowledge?

Like a lack of knowledge of the Buddhist principals? What specifically?

vinlyn

Taiyaki,

Nice to see a teacher who thinks of principals!

According to Bhumipohl, it can be either a lack of knowledge of Buddhist principles, or a lack of knowledge about the real world in which one is making decisions.

person

Interesting. I think normally intent is considered of primary importance in determining the effects of karma. But like @Silouan and @Jeffrey say there are multiple factors and wrong view matters. So like one example I know of is animal sacrifice, the intent may be to help or do good but since the act is based out of the ignorance that killing animals will bring about positive results the action is negative.

I think maybe that to look at an action as all positive or all negative misses the point in these cases. I suppose that most actions are some mix of positive and negative.

taiyaki

Lol good thing I don't teach english!!

When we usually act do we illuminate parts of reality that we want to see and negate the parts we don't? In a way the best decisions occur when we have the most information and less personal bias.

That is the problem with intention. We always want to fix something. Isn't that the formation of the problem and solution. Kind of like we need cops and we need robbers. Good and evil.

And thats because we live in duality vision or the samsaric vision of reality.

Though we shoukd cultivate the good, ulimately we cultivate what we deem as good. And everyone has their defintion of good.

So the question is, is it really good and helpful? And though we may have good intentions does it actually deliever?

And are my intentions really good? Is there selfishness subtly hidden?

Can we be free from intentions?

Can we act without pretense or purpose?

Just some thoughts.

All karma is bad when we are conditioned by karma. We must learn to be conditioned and unconditioned.

That is where buddhism makes sense to me.

tmottes

@taiyaki one more question to add to your thoughts... Are intentions inherently an ego or "I" product?

taiyaki

Well the ego or I thought happens after the intention.

For instance the intention is always conditioned from prior. So there can be good intention but is this intention mine? Or do I own this intention?

Afterwards I think yes this is my intention. I did this. But that is always a thought.

Intention is empty of self, unless we decide to own it.

And if we own it then we feel guilty or happy.

But if we don't own it, then its just intention.

Not sure if that is clear.

So maybe the self centeredness could be better explored with intention with a sense of closedness.

whereas less selfish intention is open and thinking more about others and self as well.

So it all depends? LOL

taiyaki

I guess it comes down to how seriously we take intention.

We can take it really seriously and allow it to dictate all our actions and we will feel extremely guilty or pleasure from doing good or bad things.

Or intention cannot be taken as seriously but seen as a river that is impersonal. We can guide it to do good action, while not worrying so much about it.

We can do both in a opened less ego driven way or closed in a more ego driven way.

So its not really linear. As we can come in with a sense of less ego and openness and that will condition the intention to do good as well. So intention built on top of intention.

Regardless one is always conditioned by intention. Even to have no intention is an intention. So its a matter of skillfully directing where we want to place emphasis and then let go.

Hope this helps. just noodling some thoughts with ya guys. sketching ideas!

Jeffrey

If everything conditions everything else, how does ego condition non-ego? This is as we move from more to less ego, and eventually non-ego.

taiyaki

Well ego and non ego are just ideas.

Its better to define it as narrow view and open view.

But those are ideas too.

We can see in our lives that both are important.

We just need proper perspective of both.

tmottes

@taiyaki

I think I get what you are saying. Just like sense experiences happen, intention happens. Just as we are not subject (thinker) and object (thought), there is not an intention and one that intends.

So perhaps it's our focus on certain intentions that is important in promoting skillful conditions to promote skillful actions?

What role do you feel focus has regarding intention or even buddhism overall? (if necessary, I can move that to a new discussion).

Jeffrey

Everything is just ideas. I saw a flower in our planter. I thought to myself that causes and conditions had caused it to bloom. Then I wondered if non-ego/buddha bloomed just like that. Where does the buddha go when the flower goes back to the earth? Then a leaf fell and I thought that letting go of ego could be a leave ultimately when conditions were right letting go of it's job at photo synthesis.

Then I thought that all of this metaphor was beautiful, but that all nature contains countless connections and my thought of buddha in these images represent my heart. The heart is related to ideas, it's just the problem is our stale thinking. My heart really felt wonder and at that time was stirring.

tmottes

Jeffrey said:

Where does the buddha go when the flower goes back to the earth?

That sounds like a Koan.

taiyaki

@Jeffrey

It is very important to keep that communication between the heart and mind. =]

@tmottes

I'd say the focus and awareness for myself is the same. Awareness is open or closed. If there is a solid ego and usually afflictive emotions & hinderances then awareness is very closed and narrow.

When there is positive qualities and less ego awareness is more open.

So its like an aperture on a camera.

We must throughly investigate this in our lives and in meditation. What is it like to have a contracted heart or mind. What about an open heart or mind? And what are the conditions and causes that produce such and such result? How does this condition future arisings?

Etc.