Christians being forced into converting to Buddhism in Myanmar

Sile

The problem in Myanmar seems clearly, to me, not any religious or social or ethnic culture, but a government culture defined by brutal intolerance.

PrairieGhost

MaryAnne:

Just because the Christians stole a Pagan God Figure and spun him into the Devil, does not in turn make Pagans "Devil Worshippers".

You can identify attempts to demonise nature based spirituality with a Buddhist ideal though - 'don't worship creation' means the same as 'don't cling to compounded things'. Pagan religions are viewed by Christians as elevating the finite above the infinite.

Whether that's a legitimate criticism, I don't know. I think it can be, and it can be spurious too.

PrairieGhost

MaryAnne:

You've tied secular up with economic transactions and value decisions of a society.

I don't mean to conflate the definitions. I just mean that when government does not defend religion, what else is there left for it to defend but wealth? If it's not doing that, what is its function?

Obviously it could primarily defend/enable people and institutions, but mainly, it doesn't, not in America or the UK, where I'm from. Cameron, our prime minister, talks about 'the big society', meaning moving institutions into the private sector. This philosophy leaves government with a largely economic role.

B5C

This is why religion should never be mixed with government. The religion will use it's power through government to control people into their own religion.

I am afraid this will happen to America in a few years.

MaryAnne

PrairieGhost said:

Mods, if you could split this, it'd be cool.

MaryAnne:

Pagans do not see him as the classic Christian "devil" and never did.

So you mean he is the same guy but you don't think he's bad?

I'm not sure what you mean by that... are you saying that Public "PR" for Wicca spins things one way, but in actuality things are another?

That would be a bit strong. I'm saying that Wicca spokespeople wish to distance themselves from the dark side of some pagan faiths, but that Wicca spokespeople actually have no say in what Wicca practitioners actually do, and some Wiccans do perform animal sacrifice.

I googled and came up with this site, where some clearly have the view that animal sacrifice can be part of Wicca. You can say they aren't Wiccans but who decides?

http://www.wiccantogether.com/forum/topics/the-argument-for-animal

Besides, wasnt the Christian Devil an angel that challenged God and was cast out of heaven?

Much, much too complicated to get into the theology of that one... the Devil isn't defined very well in the New or Old Testament. The fallen angel thing is medieval.

Buddhism is against personal spiritual rites or rituals? Because there sure are plenty of rites and rituals, demons and Devas and all sorts of religious observances in Buddhism, and every single other religion you just mentioned.

Cognitive dissonance.

Ok, what the religions tend to ban is asking spirits for stuff or information. Because it binds one to samsara. Wicca does have a lot of that compared to other religions.

No, The horned consort of the Goddess is not "bad". He is not a devil figure. He is not the 'opposite' of good, or god, or the goddess. He just is the male half to the female half which makes up the whole. (Kind of like Yin and Yang.
Just because the one side is black doesn't mean it's bad). He doesn't lure you into 'sin', he doesn't tempt you into evil... He is not the same as the Christian Devil.

OK, as for the rest of your post, you are making one of the biggest and most common mistakes when it comes to discussing Paganism / Wicca. This is KEY to further discussions with me, and with most people who are knowledgeable and experienced within Paganism- or Wicca:

Pagan is an "umbrella term". It encompasses a whole slew of many many different PAGAN religions and traditions. Buddhism is considered (by many) as a "pagan religion".
Druids were pagans. Stregherians are pagans. Santarians are pagans. Native American traditions are "pagan" traditions.
ALL The Old Religions of regions all over the world that predate Christianity and Judaism are "pagan" religions.

Wicca is a (relatively young) Specific Tradition within the pagan religions.
Much the same as Southern Baptists, or Mormons are SPECIFIC traditions (sects) of Christianity.
You can not say " Oh, pfft. every branch of Christianity is all the same- Christianity is Christianity, no matter how you slice it." Because you know, I know, we all know that's not true. There are distinct differences in how they practice and view certain religious dogma, etc. They may even use different texts and bibles.

The page you linked us to is a page about PAGAN religions as a whole, not specifically Wiccan.
I was a (Dianic) Wiccan. I closely studied Wicca from the perspective of several different (respected) Wiccan teachers, authors and authorities. I even taught Wicca to adults for a couple of years.
Believe me; Wiccans. do. not. do. animal. sacrifice. for. any. reason.

PrairieGhost

MaryAnne:

Wicca is a (relatively young) Specific Tradition within the pagan religions.

I think my comments have shown awareness of that. Though even this is contentious to many who self identify as Wiccan.

Believe me; Wiccans. do. not. do. animal. sacrifice. for. any. reason.

Believe me, REAL Buddhists do not do astrology. Except they do, even though the Buddha forbade it.

Who are you to define what Wiccans do? Is there a monolithic Wiccan authority which can make such pronouncements?

MaryAnne

PrairieGhost said:

MaryAnne:

Wicca is a (relatively young) Specific Tradition within the pagan religions.

I think my comments have shown awareness of that.

Believe me; Wiccans. do. not. do. animal. sacrifice. for. any. reason.

Believe me, REAL Buddhists do not do astrology. Except they do, even though the Buddha forbade it.

Who are you to define what Wiccans do? Is there a monolithic Wiccan authority which can make such pronouncements?



Obviously you are grinding an ax. So let's go with your logic:

One Buddhist monk (Yin) comes upon another Buddhist monk (Yang) from another village.
Yang asks Yin where he can purchase a small goat for a celebration the next day. Yin tells him where he can get goat meat. Yang says, no I need a live goat.
Yin asks Why?

Yang explains he's going to sacrifice the goat to [insert god/tara/deva/whatever here] the next day. Yin says to Yang, that is not right action- sacrificing animals is against Buddha's teaching, against the precepts. Real Buddhists who honor Buddha's teachings do not sacrifice animals.

Oh sure they do, says Yang. I'm a 'real Buddhist'. Heck- I'm a MONK! I sacrifice animals all the time, so therefore it is right to say "Buddhists sacrifice animals".

Do you think the first monk - Yin - should change HIS mind and adapt a different idea about what Buddhists can do - if it goes against the most basic teachings of Buddha? (even without judgement against the other monk)

Would YOU consider this monk about to sacrifice an animal a true/good/honorable Buddhist monk, and change your mind about the precepts and what they mean?
Would you look to him as a good example of a Buddhist monk?

See the issue here?
That's the same as saying Oh MaryAnne, I'm sure there are people who are "wiccans" who sacrifice animals - against ALL the teachings of Wicca... so yes, Wiccans sacrifice animals.

Sorry, not buying that false equivalency.

Cloud

This thread has gotten entirely off-topic and contentious, so I'm going to closer 'er down. Thank you everyone for your contributions.