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The problem with rebirth.
jll
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Many thanks all....
The problem with rebirth is that we don't know.
Most Buddhists don't accept the Christian concept of death followed by heaven or hell...because they don't know. Even many Christians are at least undecided and uneasy about it because they don't know.
Same with the concept of rebirth.
I am totally open-minded about it. I have no idea what's going to happen next.
One who doesn't hold belief in rebirth or reincarnation would be like the agnostic position... and one who flat-out denies them would be like the atheist position.
I think the problem is most people only see two options when there is always a third, that of "don't know". People don't like to admit that they don't really know, that they can't really know, and so they want to choose one side or the other and completely miss out on the spectacularly logical and reasonable position of neutral.
I know that quoting Lincoln wins you debating points, but this isn't a debate.
I don't believe OR not believe in rebirth or reincarnation or Christian heaven and hell or Buddhist heaven and hell. I see no concrete evidence of any of those things. But, no, I don't have to see 100% proof for that or almost anything. But just because Buddha or Jesus or anyone else tells me something, doesn't mean I believe it, either...that's blind faith (by my definition). I can test many -- perhaps even most -- of Buddha's principles to see if they "work" (for wont of a better term). So far, I haven't been convinced of anyone testing rebirth or reincarnation and coming up with solid (even though not 100%) proof. So I'll have to wait and see for myself...and then I'll let you know.
And, I'm not sure that I'd use Lincoln to prove Buddhist points: "And having thus chosen our course, without guile, and with pure purpose, let us renew our trust in God, and go forward without fear, and with manly hearts."
We have no good scientific evidence on rebirth, ghosts, and many other superstitious ideals. Why we all should accept our lives in faith alone?
The problem comes when that skillful means becomes the core of yet another identity..the person who believes in Rebirth and who defends it against all perceived attack.
Then the skillful means becomes just another egoic strategy.
Websites like that are crap. That is not evidence. And if that type of website is evidence, then I'd have to say all the similar websites written by Christians about walking through a long tunnel with light at the end of tunnel...guess that means the Christians got it right, not the Buddhists.
If you actually read my posts, instead of just wanting to preach to me, you noted that I am not a "rebirth denier". I said quite clearly that I am open-minded about the issue. That a few people have written books or articles about the topic has clearly not settled the issue. I remain open-minded about. I don't KNOW the answer. You don't KNOW the answer.
hahaha.... Damn, on second thought, I can't know that you don't know that. :grumble:
I would guess this would fall under the imponderable category by the Buddha. Course putting words into the Buddha's mouth is also not skillful.
Must leave topic alone...haha
But if you KNOW the answer, please share with us how you KNOW.
It depends on what we're talking about when we say "reality". The mind-made reality changes (let's call this "subjective" reality)... we can have different perspectives. The unenlightened reality has things and beings and suffering, the enlightened reality is empty awareness and knowing these are only conventional and not ultimately the case ("bodhi mind"). The "objective" reality that stands unaltered is emptiness, though it isn't always perceived as emptiness.
And so we all have our own subjective reality, one that can change, even if we all share the same actual reality. I don't think anyone would say that our minds change the objective reality, they only change our subjective reality... how we see things. We normally don't perceive things as they actually are, and that's why we suffer.
Enlightenment is when subjective reality and objective reality are in complete harmony. It's the "I" blending into the "All", and at the same time releasing from it because it's all dependently originated. There's nothing to cling to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Mistook_His_Wife_for_a_Hat
Also an German magician came to the case and found out that he could recreate the "ghost" activity.
"A skeptical magician called Allan also visited the scene, he noticed a piece of nylon string from a used plastic pendulum hanging from the ceiling. So, in the book Allan, Schiff und Kramer: "Falsche Geister - echte Schwindler" the whole case was declared as a hoax. Quite a bold claim considering the big picture of the case. It would have been a miracle if the central character and other members of the staff were not under strict surveillance during the observations and the investigations, even by the police.
The owner of the office sued the books publisher to court because he himself and his staff were accused of a deception. In the end, the court found the staff not guilty and forbid the continuation of the books distribution. The trial reinforced the information gathered from the investigations when it concluded that no one was caught in the act of faking the phenomena."
Skeptics at the James Randi foundations basically killed Karger's case:
http://forums.randi.org/archive/index.php/t-122348.html
"good evidence" for others
It is "good evidence" from a personal perspective.
I look out my window, and see a tree moving in the wind. Reality is that-There is a tree, and it's moving because of wind. But based on everything I experience, that's not where I stop. I go on to think "It's windy. Crap. I was hoping to go to the lake today. Dang it, now my plans are ruined. I was really looking forward to my plans. Now I'm disappointed. Stupid wind ruined my day." It's not that I didn't see reality, I just projected a whole lot of other stuff onto it. I have remind myself of this a lot when I'm getting ready to go running. I'm often tempted to look outside and see it's too hot, too cold, raining, snowing and allow my mood to change and then I don't run. instead of just accepting "it's raining, it's neither a good thing, or a bad thing" and going anyhow, I put everything onto the reality of the rain and I change my mood and sometimes my entire day and my interactions with everyone, all because of that observation.
I am skeptical of rebirth and/or reincarnation, and all in that realm. But I also have an open mind.
But the important point is that different people have different thresholds for what is "evidence" of such matters.
Scientific-level proof is at best inconclusive, if not sorely lacking. But that doesn't necessarily mean "it" isn't true.
Personal-level proof (for wont of a better term) is an individual standard. For me it has not yet been met, for others it has.