My mind is fighting my mind

clearview

When I am in meditation focusing on my breath, often times when I notice I have a thought, my mind says "NO! BAD Thought!" and tries to forcefully concentrate on my breath. It is as if my mind is taking it way too seriously, and at times it can be very stressful. My mind does this same self-judgment throughout my normal day. I know they say that the best way to be enlightened is to "lighten-up" and I think there's a lot of truth to that. I have also been experiencing stomach/digestive problems which I am certain are related to my mind fighting against itself, as I can feel unpleasant physical symptoms when this happens. Any advice on what to do about this? At times it just seems so hard to observe my mind without identifying with it. It seems like I am either identifying with my monkey-mind, or resisting and fighting the monkey-mind. It's hard to find a centered balance where I can watch my thoughts without attaching to them OR judging them.

Jeffrey

Just know that 'you' are not these judgements. You are sane and whole and the judgements are just rising and falling thoughts like rain and wind.

So you cannot add another layer of samsara 'bad judging'. Rather when you have judgements just note 'that is a judgement, it hurts my heart' and from that point feel your heart and then feel the breath.

But you cannot beat on yourself for beating on yourself. It's a tarpit and you just have to recognize judgemental thoughts as 'not you'. There is no obligation in meditation. Look at the heart sutra:

MA KA HAN NYA HA RA MIT TA SHIN GYO

Great Prajna Paramita Sutra


KAN JI ZAI BO SATSU GYO JIN HAN NYA HA RA MIT TA JI SHO KEN GO

Avalokitesvara bodhisattva practice deep prajna paramita when perceive five


UN KAI KU DO ISSAI KU YAKU

skandas all empty. relieve every suffering.


SHA RI SHI SHIKI FU I KU KU FU I SHIKI SHIKI

Sariputra, form not different (from) emptiness. Emptiness not different (from) form. Form


SOKU ZE KU KU SOKU ZE SHIKE JU SO GYO SHIKI YAKU

is the emptiness. Emptiness is the form. Sensation, thought, active substance, consciousness, also


BU NYO ZE

like this.


SHA RI SHI ZE SHO HO KU SO FU SHO FU METSU FU KU FU JO

Sariputra, this everything original character; not born, not annihilated not tainted, not pure,


FU ZO FU GEN ZE KO KU CHU MU SHIKI MU JU SO GYO

(does) not increase, (does) not decrease. Therefore in emptiness no form, no sensation, thought, active substance,


SHIKI MU GEN NI BI ZETS SHIN NI MU SHIKI SHO KO MI SOKU HO MU GEN

consciousness. No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind; no color, sound, smell, taste, touch, object; no eye,


KAI NAI SHI MU I SHIKI KAI MU MU MYO YAKU MU MU MYO

world of eyes until we come to also no world of consciousness; no ignorance, also no ignorance


JIN NAI SHI MU RO SHI YAKU MU RO SHI JIN MU KU SHU

annihilation, until we come to no old age, death, also no old age, death, also no old age, death, annhilation of no suffering, cause of suffering,


METSU DO MU CHI YAKU MU TOKU I MU SHO TOK KO BO DAI SAT TA E

nirvana, path; no wisdom, also no attainment because of no attainment. Bodhisattva depends on


HAN NYA HA RA MIT TA KO SHIN MU KE GE MU KE GE KO MU U KU FU ON RI

prajna paramita because mind no obstacle. Because of no obstacle no exist fear; go beyond


I SSAI TEN DO MU SO KU GYO NE HAN SAN ZE SHO BUTSU E HAN

all (topsy-turvey views) attain Nirvana. Past, present and future every Buddha depend on prajna


NYA HA RA MIT TA KO TOKU A NOKU TA RA SAN MYAKU SAN BO DAI

paramita therefore attain supreme, perfect, enlightenment.


KO CHI HAN NYA HA RA MIT TA ZE DAI JIN SHU ZE DAI MYO SHU

Therefore I know Prajna paramita (is) the great holy mantram, the great untainted mantram,


ZE MU JO SHU ZE MU TO DO SHU NO JO IS SAI KU SHIN JITSU FU KO

the supreme mantram, the incomparable mantram. Is capable of assuaging all suffering. True not false.


KO SETSU HAN NYA HA PA MIT TA SHU SOKU SETSU SHU WATSU

Therefore he proclaimed Prajna paramita mantram and proclaimed mantram says


GYA TE GYA TE HA RA GYA TE HA RA SO GYA TE BO DHI SO WA KA

gone, gone, to the other shore gone, reach (go) enlightenment accomplish.


HAN NYA SHIN GYO


NEGA WA KU WA KO NO KU DO KU O MOTTE A MA NE KU ISSAI NI OYO

What we pray, this merit with universally all existence Pervade,


BO SHI WARE RA TO SHU JO TO MI NA TO MO NI BUTSUDO O JYO ZEN KO TO

we and sentient being all with Buddhism achieve


this (What I pray is that this merit pervade universally and we Buddhists and all sentient beings achieve

Buddhism.)


JI HO SAN SHI I SHI HU SHI SON BU SA MO KO SA

Ten directions past, present and future all Buddhas The world honoured one. Bodhisattva, great Bodhisattva,


MO KO HO JA HO RO MI

great Prajna-paramita.


Photo of Allen Ginsberg Copyright © 1995 Jeffrey Blankfort. Image from the CD-ROM "Haight-Ashbury in the Sixties".

taiyaki

The three marks.

Impermanence, not me or mine or self, and suffering/dissatisfaction.

Start to bring these into your experience as a way of looking that you can develop and practice.

They are tools that help with letting go and go profoundly deeper and deeper. Carve out the heart and mind with these insights.

A thought is just a thought. It isn't you, nor is it yours. End the push/pull by seeing its three marks. Allow dispassion to grow in you and feel the freedom of release.

See how a thought with clinging (aversion/attachment) build reality and solidity.

See how less clinging to thoughts bring about more freedom and less solidity.

Practice and contemplate. Many people know that everything is impermanent. But do they let that penetrate their hearts? Do they cultivate that insight which leads to freedom?

Remember a in thinking there are only thoughts, no thinker. A thought refers to nothing. A thought doesn't even refer to itself. Just one thought, gone, then another. There is no link other than inference. See this clearly. Then ask yourself where are thoughts? Where do they come from? Where do they go? What is perception like when thoughts condition consciousness? How do thoughts arise?

Have fun.

pegembara

@clearview

The 1st step in the case of the restless monkey mind is to get it to settle somewhat. Only when the mind is reasonably composed can it be used for gaining insights. The support for this is living a conducive moral lifestyle.

The trick is to have sati (mindfulness) taking control and supervising the mind. Once the mind is unified with sati a new kind of awareness will emerge. The mind that has developed calm is held in check by that calm, just like a chicken held in a coop ... the chicken is unable to wander outside, but it can still move around within the coop. Its walking to and fro doesn’t get it into trouble because it is restrained by the coop. Likewise the awareness that takes place when the mind has sati and is calm does not cause trouble. None of the thinking or sensations that take place within the calm mind cause harm or disturbance.

Some people don’t want to experience any thoughts or feelings at all, but this is going too far. Feelings arise within the state of calm. The mind is both experiencing feelings and calm at the same time, without being disturbed. When there is calm like this there are no harmful consequences. Problems occur when the ‘chicken’ gets out of the ‘coop’. For instance, you may be watching the breath entering and leaving and then forget yourself, allowing the mind to wander away from the breath back home, off to the shops or to any number of different places. Maybe even half an hour may pass before you suddenly realize you’re supposed to be practicing meditation and reprimand yourself for your lack of sati. This is where you have to be really careful, because this is where the chicken gets out of the coop - the mind leaves its base of calm.

You must take care to maintain the awareness with sati and try to pull the mind back. Although I use the words ‘pull the mind back’, in fact the mind doesn’t really go anywhere, only the object of awareness has changed. You must make the mind stay right here and now. As long as there is sati there will be presence of mind. It seems like you are pulling the mind back but really it hasn’t gone anywhere; it has simply changed a little. It seems that the mind goes here and there, but in fact the change occurs right at the one spot. When sati is regained, in a flash you are back with the mind without it having to be brought from anywhere.

Ajahn Chah

buddhajunkie

Perhaps you may want to experiment with moving your attention away from the content of your thoughts, and instead observe their effects.

The easiest way, imo, is by being mindful of the body. In addition to the breath, pay attention to tension and other sensations in the body. You will see it's a good way to get a window into your mind without getting caught up with its particular thoughts.

In a way, the body is more honest than the mind.

Many teachers emphasize mindfulness of the body, and Goenka, possibly the most prolific 10-day retreat teacher, takes it to the extreme degree.

poptart

I agree with @buddhajunkie.

The ego mind is a crafty devil, trying to make everything good or bad. Once we think "now I am a Buddhist" old Ego comes out to play labelling everything. He'll tell you "Buddhists shouldn't think during meditation", or "Buddhists shouldn't have feelings". Smile at his antics, and let what arises be. Thoughts are what they are. Feelings are what they are. Let them come and go.

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so" - Shakespeare

PrairieGhost

Hi clearview:

At times it just seems so hard to observe my mind without identifying with it.

What are observing and identifying?

music

buddhajunkie said:

Perhaps you may want to experiment with moving your attention away from the content of your thoughts, and instead observe their effects.

The easiest way, imo, is by being mindful of the body. In addition to the breath, pay attention to tension and other sensations in the body. You will see it's a good way to get a window into your mind without getting caught up with its particular thoughts.

In a way, the body is more honest than the mind.

Many teachers emphasize mindfulness of the body, and Goenka, possibly the most prolific 10-day retreat teacher, takes it to the extreme degree.

When I am anxious, I feel it in my stomach, fear in my chest, stress in my throat. But I can't feel thoughts (not sensations) anywhere in the body.

DairyLama

clearview said:

When I am in meditation focusing on my breath, often times when I notice I have a thought, my mind says "NO! BAD Thought!" and tries to forcefully concentrate on my breath. It's hard to find a centered balance where I can watch my thoughts without attaching to them OR judging them.

Some people find it helpful to label thought processes as they arise, it can be a way to defuse the thought and allow it to pass. It's also a way of developing some insight into thought patterns and recurring themes.
I'd suggest using simple one-word labels like "anxiety", "anger", "replaying" and "planning" - or just "thinking".

ThailandTom

buddhajunkie said:

Perhaps you may want to experiment with moving your attention away from the content of your thoughts, and instead observe their effects.

The easiest way, imo, is by being mindful of the body. In addition to the breath, pay attention to tension and other sensations in the body. You will see it's a good way to get a window into your mind without getting caught up with its particular thoughts.

In a way, the body is more honest than the mind.

Many teachers emphasize mindfulness of the body, and Goenka, possibly the most prolific 10-day retreat teacher, takes it to the extreme degree.

This is basically what I have been doing recently and it has helped me a lot. Before you start to focus on the breath, start noticing how your body feels from the top of your head down to your feet and back up again. Observe it in detail, how does it feel at that particular moment in time. I often have realised how tired certain parts of my body are whereas before I actually sat and observed I felt nothing, this is being aware, training your mind to be more aware of your body first.

Just to add, meditation shoud not really be something so formal, like a chore or something you need to do. Just do it, be with whatever is happening at that moment in time and flow with it. Accept things for what they are and let things go, including thoughts. Do not cling to them or tell them to go away because that in itself is causing a different kind of clinging, a different kind of self. Just observe and try to see what is observing, what is going on up there in that noodle of yours.

buddhajunkie

music said:

When I am anxious, I feel it in my stomach, fear in my chest, stress in my throat. But I can't feel thoughts (not sensations) anywhere in the body.

I don't think you're supposed to feel thoughts, per se, in your body. But you can feel your emotional response to those thoughts. Anxiety is just one such response. Sometimes you can feel the emotional response before you're aware that you're having a particular thought.

PrairieGhost

Hi music:

When I am anxious, I feel it in my stomach, fear in my chest, stress in my throat. But I can't feel thoughts (not sensations) anywhere in the body.

That's because you haven't developed your attention yet. Tensions in the body distort our thinking.

RebeccaS

@Music I don't feel thoughts in my body, either. We're conditioned to believe that we feel them in the head, but we don't. Not really.

driedleaf

Let your mind win this fight.

DairyLama

RebeccaS said:

@Music I don't feel thoughts in my body, either. We're conditioned to believe that we feel them in the head, but we don't. Not really.

So where do you experience thoughts?

music

PedanticPorpoise said:

RebeccaS said:

@Music I don't feel thoughts in my body, either. We're conditioned to believe that we feel them in the head, but we don't. Not really.

So where do you experience thoughts?

I can't say. By the time you try to pin it down, it is gone.

Sabre

I can distill two problems here. The first is your thinking, the second is you not being content with your thinking. Take on the second problem first and thoughts will have less of a grip on you. How you can do this is by doing kindness/contentment/metta meditation. Meditation without a bit of kindness towards oneself will never take off. If you can come from a place of kindness, you can be unjudgemental towards thoughts. If you can do that, thoughts will often naturally settle, if not you can use some other techniques, but first and foremost, be kind.

PrairieGhost

While I agree with this:

'If you can come from a place of kindness, you can be unjudgemental towards thoughts. If you can do that, thoughts will often naturally settle, if not you can use some other techniques, but first and foremost, be kind.'

And think it very good advice, I actually think metta meditation is rather like trying to lift oneself up by one's shoelaces, and can be counterproductive. I myself tried it some years back and found it impossible to just 'feel loving kindness for others' to order. Love doesn't work like that, and I am glad that it doesn't.

Respectfully, I would advise considering how you can be useful to the people around you, rather than trying in an abstract way to feel love. As the song goes, 'love is a doing word'.

This is the Metta sutta. It is not a meditation technique; as far as I know, metta meditation was invented by Buddhagosa in the Visuddhimagga, and is not one of the Buddha's teachings.

Karaniya Metta Sutta: The Buddha's Words on Loving-kindness

This is what should be done
By one who is skilled in goodness,

And who knows the path of peace:
Let them be able and upright,
Straightforward and gentle in speech,
Humble and not conceited,
Contented and easily satisfied,
Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways.

Peaceful and calm and wise and skillful,
Not proud or demanding in nature.

Let them not do the slightest thing
That the wise would later reprove.

Wishing: In gladness and in safety,
May all beings be at ease.

Whatever living beings there may be;
Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none,
The great or the mighty, medium, short or small,
The seen and the unseen,
Those living near and far away,
Those born and to-be-born —
May all beings be at ease!


Let none deceive another,
Or despise any being in any state.

Let none through anger or ill-will
Wish harm upon another.

Even as a mother protects with her life
Her child, her only child,
So with a boundless heart
Should one cherish all living beings;
Radiating kindness over the entire world:

Spreading upwards to the skies,
And downwards to the depths;
Outwards and unbounded,
Freed from hatred and ill-will.

Whether standing or walking, seated or lying down
Free from drowsiness,
One should sustain this recollection.

This is said to be the sublime abiding.

By not holding to fixed views,
The pure-hearted one, having clarity of vision,
Being freed from all sense desires,
Is not born again into this world.

http://www.noble-buddhism-beliefs.com/metta-sutta.html

Sabre

PrairieGhost said:

I myself tried it some years back and found it impossible to just 'feel loving kindness for others' to order.

It's possible, though. And with some kindness for others is automatically being kind to yourself as well, which will help in getting meditation to work better.

And it is not a later development, it is a method from the suttas that is also mentioned in the anapanasati sutta amongst other methods. So let clearview find out for himself what helps and what not.

PrairieGhost

Hi Sabre:

That's not how I read the anapanasati sutta.

So let clearview find out for himself what helps and what not.

Yes, absolutely. You have given your suggestions and I have given mine.

Even if it's unpopular or unorthodox, I have to speak in line with what I have confirmed through experience, as the Buddha taught.

zither

Stop trying to forcefully do anything.Just acknowledge that there is thinking and go back to the breath,By the way your probably wasting your time asking for advice.Just get along to a group that is practicing meditation so you have a basis with which to work.

RebeccaS

music said:

PedanticPorpoise said:

RebeccaS said:

@Music I don't feel thoughts in my body, either. We're conditioned to believe that we feel them in the head, but we don't. Not really.

So where do you experience thoughts?

I can't say. By the time you try to pin it down, it is gone.

I don't know But I try to feel them in my head and they're not there.

DairyLama

Sabre said:

I can distill two problems here. The first is your thinking, the second is you not being content with your thinking. Take on the second problem first and thoughts will have less of a grip on you. How you can do this is by doing kindness/contentment/metta meditation. Meditation without a bit of kindness towards oneself will never take off. If you can come from a place of kindness, you can be unjudgemental towards thoughts. If you can do that, thoughts will often naturally settle, if not you can use some other techniques, but first and foremost, be kind.

I agree. A judgemental mind isn't a calm mind.

lobster

Outstanding advice guys.

My tendency is to just sit.
Mind wanders, bring it back to the breath occasionally.
Thoughts or bad thoughts arise.
Noted.
Find a good thought.
Work with the tendencies of the mind.
Fill it with mantra or use a mindfulness bell.

If possible find the softness in the breath. Almost as if there is a second channel of air that breathes within the breath.

Don't force the monkey, it will wriggle.
Play with it . . .