Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Why does it take such a long time?

edited October 2012 in Buddhism Basics
All religions say practices must be done over and over, and finally you will be enlightened. Buddhism is no exception. My question is why. Why does it have to take such a long time? Why can't it happen instantly? Even in zen (which is about immediate awakening), the practice goes on for a while. I can see physical activities taking time, but why should something psychological or spiritual take time - whether it is the working out of karma or destroying habits? When we think or imagine, it is instant. It doesn't take time. Why can't it be the same for awakening?

Comments

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Because I don't think we actually deeply comprehend quickly.
    PrairieGhost
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    music said:

    All religions say practices must be done over and over, and finally you will be enlightened. Buddhism is no exception.

    Because we are trying to change the habits of a lifetime ( or possibly many lifetimes ). ;)
    PrairieGhostDavetheseekerjessie70FoibleFull
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Reasonable sounding answer: because, though delusion is baseless, there seem to be many layers to peel off before the whole process of doing so collapses.

    It's the same reason why, though matter is (in physics) empty, you can walk across a bridge of stone.

    Frustrating zen sounding answer: time isn't time.

    Final answer: I haven't a clue :) . Don't be a wave disputing with the ocean.

    p.s. Also, it may not take very long. The thought of having to face a long, gruelling process of awakening may cause a long gruelling process of awakening.

    There are no short cuts, but that doesn't mean there's any distance to travel.
  • DaltheJigsawDaltheJigsaw Mountain View Veteran
    Because we are like an onion, we have to keep peeling the layers in order to get to the core of our real selves.
    PrairieGhostvinlyn
  • A few reasons.
    1. Most people don't actually want to do it, most of the time. Everybody wants to get to heaven, but nobody wants to die.
    2. Certain skills and capacities need to be developed. Stable attention in the midst of emotional disturbance is hard. Attending to all aspects of a complex experience is hard. The more concentrated time you devote to developing these skills, the faster they come along, but this interacts with issue 1 in an unfortunate way.
    3. Even when those skills are adequate, there is an enormous amount of karma/conditioning still largely running the show, and it takes time for that to run down.
    The flip side is, if you practice hard and honestly, you will make fast progress.
    PrairieGhostJeffreyBunks
  • ZeroZero Veteran
    music said:

    All religions say practices must be done over and over, and finally you will be enlightened.

    Not quite
    music said:


    Why can't it happen instantly?
    When we think or imagine, it is instant. It doesn't take time.
    Why can't it be the same for awakening?

    It may depend on what you're thinking.
    music said:


    My question is why.

    The answer may be in the question.
    PrairieGhost
  • Music, just to add, I agree with everyone's answer so far. Which means there is no perfect answer.
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    edited October 2012
    WHY DOES IT TAKE SUCH A LONG TIME?

    Enlightenment can be problematic when spoken of as something that can be acquired like a possession.
    It would be more easily understood if thought of as WITHOUT ATTACHMENT..

    The second difficulty with speaking of it is thinking that there is an individual, separate from others, who experiences it.

    And finally... about tying it to linear time..
    What do YOU think the Buddhas words of "I was, am and always will be enlightened simultaneously with existence" really meant?
  • edited October 2012

    Music, just to add, I agree with everyone's answer so far. Which means there is no perfect answer.

    This is newbuddhist.com, so I already knew there would be no perfect answer.
    PrairieGhost
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited October 2012
    We are afraid. What happens when we lose our familiar: sense etc stimulus, thoughts, and resistance to death? It's scary to change. The ego mandala draws us back into samsara.
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    music:
    This is newbuddhist.com, so I already knew there would be no perfect answer.
    Haha; you're alright, music.
  • It could be the way our minds are conditioned. Some research has shown that neural networks that are defined by repetition, to some extent. I think lighting up new synapses in the brain take time. These are essentially electrical impulses- so I can see why you would think it should be fast. But I think years of using, let's say, I-95, or I-75 or some major highway in the brain, makes it that particular route nearly automatic. In a sense we train ourselves to take some new off-the-beaten path route to get somewhere else (mentally). So lighting up the new passage takes time since our minds are conditioned to take the highway. Just an idea.
  • If it were easy then we wouldn't be talking about it. And Buddhism wouldn't exist because the Buddha wouldn't be special.
    mfranzdorf
  • edited October 2012
    I've seen that it takes roughly 10,000 hours of practice to become a virtuoso of anything- sports, music, etc.
    http://blogs.hbr.org/schwartz/2010/08/six-keys-to-being-excellent-at.html
  • The conditions have to be right for it to happen. What is required is intense and unrelenting mindfulness.
    "Now, if anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven years, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging/sustenance — non-return.

    "Let alone seven years. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for six years... five... four... three... two years... one year... seven months... six months... five... four... three... two months... one month... half a month, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging/sustenance — non-return.

    "Let alone half a month. If anyone would develop these four frames of reference in this way for seven days, one of two fruits can be expected for him: either gnosis right here & now, or — if there be any remnant of clinging/sustenance — non-return.

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html
  • buddhajunkie:
    If it were easy then we wouldn't be talking about it. And Buddhism wouldn't exist because the Buddha wouldn't be special.
    He knows he isn't special. He might tell you he is the world-honoured one, but that's just to get your attention.
  • I think it takes a long time because as someone once posted somewhere else.........

    Attachments and afflictions

    We need to let these go for any chance to move forward
  • SUDDEN OR GRADUAL ENLIGHTENMENT?

    Here is a site I just found -

    http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/sudgrad2.html

    Have a good one!
  • edited October 2012

    buddhajunkie:

    If it were easy then we wouldn't be talking about it. And Buddhism wouldn't exist because the Buddha wouldn't be special.
    He knows he isn't special. He might tell you he is the world-honoured one, but that's just to get your attention.


    I agree that he is not special in his potential, since he says most people can achieve awakening with the right training.

    But I think he is special in many other ways. Here's my list. He:

    - Renounced his princely life for his spiritual pursuit

    - Discovered the path to liberation

    - Achieved liberation, and did so without a teacher or an institution to take care of his basic needs.

    - Created the first Buddhist monkhood in the days before Buddhists were born into Buddhism, or before it was "cool" to be Buddhist.

    - Is one of the great teachers of the path, and in a variety of teaching styles: As a mentor ("Instructions to Rahula"), as a debater (e.g., "Akkosa Sutta"), as a lecturer (e.g., "Satipatthana Sutta") and as an orator (e.g., "Fire Sermon").

    - Was (essentially) the author of the majority of the discourses in the Pali Cannon


    Each of those things, individually, are significant undertakings or achievements. All of them together are heroic.

    In a way, the Buddha is like Isaac Newton: While in modern times, thousands of undergraduate engineers and scientists routinely use Newton's calculus and physics, very few of them have what it takes to have invented it on their own.

    Of course, some say the Buddha's life story has been exaggerated or fabricated, but that's a different question.
  • SabreSabre Veteran
    edited October 2012
    It takes longer to unlearn things than it takes to learn them. And Buddhism is about unlearning. Unlearning craving, most notably.
    tmottes
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    buddhajunkie:
    - Renounced his princely life for his spiritual pursuit
    Indian ascetics who give up a wealthy life to beg and follow the spiritual life are very common, even today.
    - Achieved liberation, and did so without a teacher or an institution to take care of his basic needs.
    He had several teachers, and India itself was his institution. Support for ascetics is culturally and institutionally ingrained in Indian society. He achieved nothing alone. This is very important to understand for anyone who sees themselves as a spiritual hero.
    - Is one of the great teachers of the path, and in a variety of teaching styles: As a mentor ("Instructions to Rahula"), as a debater (e.g., "Akkosa Sutta"), as a lecturer (e.g., "Satipatthana Sutta") and as an orator (e.g., "Fire Sermon").

    - Was (essentially) the author of the majority of the discourses in the Pali Cannon
    The suttas are a very useful body of writing, agreed. No one else, as far as I know, has so systematically refuted the wrong views people come up with, for instance.

    At times they aren't entirely consistent, however, and they include extreme misogynist views. This is probably not down to the Buddha himself, however.
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    By the way, it is also important that the suttas not be perfect, divinely inerrant and so on, or, to paraphrase Ajahn Chah, you might end up looking for Buddha in some place other than your own mind.
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Why can't it happen instantly
    Because the letting go is so contrary to the tightening that karma and self cherishing has practiced and locked into us.
  • music said:

    All religions say practices must be done over and over, and finally you will be enlightened. Buddhism is no exception. My question is why. Why does it have to take such a long time? Why can't it happen instantly? Even in zen (which is about immediate awakening), the practice goes on for a while. I can see physical activities taking time, but why should something psychological or spiritual take time - whether it is the working out of karma or destroying habits? When we think or imagine, it is instant. It doesn't take time. Why can't it be the same for awakening?

    I think in Mahayana traditions, awakening can be sudden and unexpected. They say it depends on your sincerity and faith.

  • Simply in that the heart is deep and we are slow to understand.

    There is no limit to our spiritual development it is progressive and infinite. We may experience epiphanies, insights, realizations, and that light bulb going on over our head from time to time, but there is not a point where we suddenly can say this is it for if we do it will slip through our fingers.
    PrairieGhost
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    lobster said:

    Why can't it happen instantly
    Because the letting go is so contrary to the tightening that karma and self cherishing has practiced and locked into us.

    I like the description of "tightening" here.
  • SileSile Veteran
    edited October 2012
    The Weepies - Takes So Long.

    Always makes me think of this topic.

Sign In or Register to comment.