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Zen v Tibetan Buddhism

BunksBunks Australia Veteran
in Buddhism Basics
Hi all

I have recently been attending both a zazen group meditation as well as a Tibetan tradition meditation group.

It's been interesting to observe the differences in the traditions.

I am a bit torn as to which one I commit to? Do you think I need to commit to one or do people out there feel comfortable following more than one tradition (or their own!)?

There are things I like in both but also things I'm not too sure about.

I've listed below the traits of each as I see them. I'd be interested to hear other's thoughts?

Zen

- All about just awakening here and now
- Little mention of rebirth / reincarnation
- Quite neutral i.e. not particularly optimistic or pessimistic
- Just sit - don't meditate on anything in particular - just watch the thoughts come and go
- Seems to imply that compassion will arise naturally when a person "wakes up"
- don't expect to get anything from meditation

Tibetan

- Seems to treat the buddha as a diety
- Focuses a lot on doing things to attain a better rebirth
- Meditate more on developing compassion and wisdom
- incorporates prayer

Comments

  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    As far as your practice is concerned, you don't have to commit to either. If you need to choose one or the other for logistical reasons, choose the one which best supports your practice. The people you work with will have a much bigger impact on your practice than the tradition you practice in.
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    Well, let's see. If you had to give up one of them, is there one that you'd miss more than the other? Would it be because of the Teacher, or the fellow Buddhists at the meditation, etc?

    I'm curious as to how you ended up attending both. Normally, we're lucky to have even one Sangha to attend.

    I don't really have any advice. It might be interesting to ask both of the Teachers about focusing on one of the other, and see what they both advise you.
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Cinorjer said:

    Well, let's see. If you had to give up one of them, is there one that you'd miss more than the other? Would it be because of the Teacher, or the fellow Buddhists at the meditation, etc?

    I'm curious as to how you ended up attending both. Normally, we're lucky to have even one Sangha to attend.

    I don't really have any advice. It might be interesting to ask both of the Teachers about focusing on one of the other, and see what they both advise you.

    Hi @Cinorjer - thanks for your comments.

    I work in the middle of Melbourne (Australia). It's a city of about 4.5 million people so caters for pretty much everything!

    There are weekday lunch time meditation classes for both traditions that I can attend.

    As for your questions, my only real issue with the Tibetan class I attend is that I am agnostic when it comes to rebirth (i.e. I don't know), and I get a little frustrated that they talk about it as if it is fact. There are also a couple of other things they talk about as fact that I find a little dubious. Other than that, the teacher is great and the people who attend are great.

    I have only been to the zazen twice. The teacher is a little dry and kind of just says "don't expect anything". I find that a bit pessimistic (but perhaps it's realistic?????)
  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran
    I follow Tibetan Buddhism ... we have one of the Dalai Lama's monks living in our city, and I believe in the importance of a living "example".

    I have had some trouble with some of the aspects of Tibetan Buddhism, but eventually just decided that it didn't matter.
    The practices are what count, as Buddhism is something you DO .. not something you intellectualize or wrangle with in your mind.

    We all walk our path on our own feet, leaving a trail of our footprints behind us. I do not think there is any path that fits us as well as our own skin does. But all paths have something to offer.
    BunksIndigoBlueSky9
  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran
    I would also like to comment that it is just FINE to be "torn". Observe your tornness .. Buddhism is all about observing, particularly observing fully openly and without judging.
    Enjoy.
    See your teachings as something to experiment with and seeing what happens.
    BunksIndigoBlueSky9
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    Bunks said:

    I am agnostic when it comes to rebirth (i.e. I don't know), and I get a little frustrated that they talk about it as if it is fact. There are also a couple of other things they talk about as fact that I find a little dubious.

    This has never gotten in the way of good practice, in my experience. I just do my best to translate the rebirth stuff into corresponding present-moment experiences, and ignore the parts I can't get to fit. Works great.
    Bunks said:

    I have only been to the zazen twice. The teacher is a little dry and kind of just says "don't expect anything". I find that a bit pessimistic (but perhaps it's realistic?????)

    It's more of a practice instruction than a prediction.
  • SonghillSonghill Veteran
    Bunks:
    It's been interesting to observe the differences in the traditions.
    I have been to both groups (Soto and Nyingma). Yes, they are different. But they mainly cater to westerners who are new to Buddhism. What you lean in Zen is bonpu Zen and in Nyingma it's Buddhism for beginners who haven't done Ngondro and probably never will.
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Bunks said:


    I am agnostic when it comes to rebirth (i.e. I don't know), and I get a little frustrated that they talk about it as if it is fact

    Have you read Stephen Batchelor's book about his experiences as a monk in the Tibetan tradition, and later, the Korean Zen tradition? He eventually left both, due to the rebirth issue, and what he generally called "dogma", and created an agnostic path for himself an others, which he calls "secular Buddhism". There are podcasts of his around the internet to listen to, and I'm sure he has a website. You might enjoy the book. "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist", is the title.

    Some of the Tibetan meditations specifically for generating compassion are very helpful. I think it's ok to take what you like of different traditions, do what works. Of course, some people would call that "cherry-picking" and worse, but I see it more as following the basics (4 NT, 8-fold path, precepts, mindfulness, non-attachment, compassion), and adding features that help you further your practice. What could be wrong with that? :)

    IndigoBlueSky9
  • fivebellsfivebells Veteran
    Yeah, Confession is great.
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    Dakini said:

    Bunks said:


    I am agnostic when it comes to rebirth (i.e. I don't know), and I get a little frustrated that they talk about it as if it is fact

    Have you read Stephen Batchelor's book about his experiences as a monk in the Tibetan tradition, and later, the Korean Zen tradition? He eventually left both, due to the rebirth issue, and what he generally called "dogma", and created an agnostic path for himself an others, which he calls "secular Buddhism". There are podcasts of his around the internet to listen to, and I'm sure he has a website. You might enjoy the book. "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist", is the title.

    Some of the Tibetan meditations specifically for generating compassion are very helpful. I think it's ok to take what you like of different traditions, do what works. Of course, some people would call that "cherry-picking" and worse, but I see it more as following the basics (4 NT, 8-fold path, precepts, mindfulness, non-attachment, compassion), and adding features that help you further your practice. What could be wrong with that? :)

    Dakini said:

    Bunks said:


    I am agnostic when it comes to rebirth (i.e. I don't know), and I get a little frustrated that they talk about it as if it is fact

    Have you read Stephen Batchelor's book about his experiences as a monk in the Tibetan tradition, and later, the Korean Zen tradition? He eventually left both, due to the rebirth issue, and what he generally called "dogma", and created an agnostic path for himself an others, which he calls "secular Buddhism". There are podcasts of his around the internet to listen to, and I'm sure he has a website. You might enjoy the book. "Confession of a Buddhist Atheist", is the title.

    Some of the Tibetan meditations specifically for generating compassion are very helpful. I think it's ok to take what you like of different traditions, do what works. Of course, some people would call that "cherry-picking" and worse, but I see it more as following the basics (4 NT, 8-fold path, precepts, mindfulness, non-attachment, compassion), and adding features that help you further your practice. What could be wrong with that? :)

    I have read a couple of Stephen Batchelor's books @dakini.

    I enjoyed them but I don't think I'm prepared to dismiss the traditions already established. I kinda like the idea of the monks, nuns, temples etc.

  • zenffzenff Veteran
    Bunks said:


    I have only been to the zazen twice. The teacher is a little dry and kind of just says "don't expect anything". I find that a bit pessimistic (but perhaps it's realistic?????)

    Vimilakirti (from the Vimalakirti sutra) said something close to: “Don’t ask about the goal and benefit of meditation. To be without goal and benefit is meditation.”

    Commitment to one tradition is necessary if you want to work your way up in the hierarchy of that group. But if you’re not interested in that you can probably come and go as you please. Enjoy that freedom, I’d say.

    Dakini
  • bumblebeebumblebee
    Take you time, there us no rush, perhaps
    the deeper question is "where do you feel
    most alive?". Greetings from London
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    You need to practice one for stability, But making a commitment will come further down the line for most people for now take some time to appreciate other methods but know that mixing and matching the (traditional junk shop treatment) doesn't yield quick results and delivers more confusion rather then clarity.
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    Bunks said:

    I have recently been attending both a zazen group meditation as well as a Tibetan tradition meditation group.
    I am a bit torn as to which one I commit to? Do you think I need to commit to one or do people out there feel comfortable following more than one tradition (or their own!)?

    There is no need to make any early commitments, and you might want to explore other traditions anyway. Give yourself some time to better understand the similarities and differences. Some Buddhists never commit to a particular tradition, others do.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    As a bridge between Zen and Vajrayana you may want to check out the Dzogchen schools.
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    I think it's important to approach any Buddhist tradition without the mindset of needing to cling on to certain beliefs. You shouldn't think 'I'll believe some of what you have to say but x is off limits, I take x for granted'. Nor should you blindly believe what the tradition says.

    Sometimes, people are happy with blindly believing what a tradition says up to say, rebirth, on which point they blindly believe what their Romano-Greco/Judeo-Christian culture says (science has removed heaven, but the most important aspect, the finality, is the same, so emotionally the two views of death are similar, and date back to visions of Hades/Sheol, which is a sad place where failed heroic egos are supposed to go in death).

    This is like dressing up in clothing from two different costumes. Or rearranging one's armour.
  • taiyakitaiyaki Veteran
    Play and patience.

    The rest follows.
    PrairieGhost
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Taking things lightly is good, but gossamer can be stronger than steel.

    (I think you know this, taiyaki, it's for the thread, not you.)
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    I am a bit torn as to which one I commit to?
    Commit to the Buddha Dharma. There is only one Buddha Dharma. It has a lot of different names and different practices and different explanations. But they are all still the same one Buddha Dharma. When it comes time to commit to a particular set of practices, I think you will just intuitively know which ones.



    taiyakilobsterBunks
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    Just because a zenith, Buddha or one of our universal mothers says something, does not make it anything but transitory.
    Use your own judgement. I would also try some more dharma flavours too.
    As vajrapani said to me this morning
    Don't believe anything I tell you.
    :)
    PrairieGhost
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    The Buddha put it much better than I did in my previous posts.
    "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth."

    "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.

    "If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has something reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.095x.than.html
  • DairyLamaDairyLama Veteran Veteran
    PrairieGhost said:

    Nor should you blindly believe what the tradition says.

    I agree. But maybe we shouldn't blindly believe what we think either.
    ;)
    PrairieGhost
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