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Is it a waste of time for a Buddhist to ponder atheism/theism?
...Of course to many of my Christian relatives, that won't matter--if I don't believe that God-Jesus-The Holy spirit did it, I might as well be Satan Wish I were kidding--and I do realize there are millions of Christians who are not as fundamentalist along those lines. ...
Ain't it the truth! I have an elderly neighbor who has asked to see my "photo journals" on The Bridge On The River Kwai in Thailand. Well, Buddhism is all-pervasive in Thailand, so he is going to see quite a bit of Buddhist temples and some Hindu imagery, too. And knowing how he picks on Protestant and Catholic churches other than the one he "sort of" attends, this will get him going on Buddhism, too. It will be quite entertaining.
...if we took the approach of avoiding all questions which concern a personal narrative, there would be no forums
There would still be plenty to address on the phenomenological and practical levels. Dharma Overground manages to be an active forum despite mostly sticking to those levels.
I definitely agree that 90% of Buddhist forum conversations would stop, but that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
To me, the most profound teaching on god was penned by Thich Nhat Hanh in his poem "Call me by my True Names"
Call me by my true names
Do not say that I'll depart tomorrow because even today I still arrive.
Look deeply: I arrive in every second to be a bud on a spring branch, to be a tiny bird, with wings still fragile, learning to sing in my new nest, to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower, to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.
I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry, in order to fear and to hope, the rhythm of my heart is the birth and death of all that are alive.
I am the mayfly metamorphosing on the surface of the river, and I am the bird which, when spring comes, arrives in time to eat the mayfly.
I am the frog swimming happily in the clear water of a pond, and I am also the grass-snake who, approaching in silence, feeds itself on the frog.
I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones, my legs as thin as bamboo sticks, and I am the arms merchant, selling deadly weapons to Uganda.
I am the twelve year old girl, refugee on a small boat, who throws herself into the ocean after being raped by a sea pirate, and I am the pirate, my heart not yet capable of seeing and loving.
I am a member of the politburo, with plenty of power in my hands, and I am the man who has to pay his "debt of blood" to my people, dying slowly in a forced labor camp.
My joy is like spring, so warm it makes flowers bloom in all walks of life. My pain is like a river of tears, so full it fills up the four oceans.
Please call me by my true names, so I can hear all my cries and my laughs at once, so I can see that my joy and pain are one.
Please call me by my true names, so I can wake up, and so the door of my heart can be left open, the door of compassion.
Very much agree. For all practical purposes, in the dialogue with, for example, Christians, I see "God" as the strong compulsion/commitment toward ethics, compassion, intelligence or knowledge beyond what we currently possess but which can be drawn nearer to, and the idea that life as we know it can be exchanged for something more ideal. Of course to many of my Christian relatives, that won't matter--if I don't believe that God-Jesus-The Holy spirit did it, I might as well be Satan Wish I were kidding--and I do realize there are millions of Christians who are not as fundamentalist along those lines. I just wish that the fact we share so much counted for something, instead of being rendered meaningless without the Christian labels (not feeling bitter here, just wishing there were more understanding in the world!)
Yea exactly...very insightful. Actually, the masonic definition of god is 'beauty, strentgh, wisdom'....which is markedly similar to your own assessment. (the old masons take a detached, interactive, intellectual view of god, I learned a lot from them about what the practice of belief in god means. old freemasonic literature is like the Chilton's auto repair guide to the belief in god (any god)...lots of insight along the lines of your assessment. ) It makes me sad that you actually still get attacked though. I can relate to that, and thus i feel a strong urge to defend you, although im sure you dont need defending. personally I think that there is some pretty serious good hidden in the new testament, in the quran, in freemasonic literature, even shinto, vodoun and it's ilk. but they just arent even remotely close to that higher universal flavor, the massive comprehensive brilliance that buddhist scriptures are. honestly, Ive had my nose buried in sakyamuni's scriptures for years, and on the off occasion that i glance at some other later religious texts, i see many faint echos of buddhism, especially the Dhammapada. But these warped echos do clearly seem to me to lack the original integrity and depth of the prime source. basically what im saying is, I hope that you're never even just a little intimidated by the exclusivity folks.. even if they are family members. I think that,,,, it;s probably better to just sort of pat them on the head, and think ' i know deep down you mean well', sometimes i do want them to know that we can fight back, and do so without fear and with great effectiveness.
Its sometimes hard for those of us who grew up in that environment... seems like most of them either still harbor all kinds of terror and guilt, or they embrace a bitter atheism out of anger.
So...definitely I think a lot of the folks around here are reticent to mention god at all, wanting to put as much daylight between them and christianity, theism as possible... i totally understand that. I wouldnt blame anyone for being bitter. anyways, im rambling.
It indeed is a waste of time, since athiesm/theism debate is create by people who are attached to Christianity. In countries that have historically been Buddhist majority doesn't have such silly issues.
We've all pondered the big 'G'. But does it get you closer to enlightenment? I would say 'no', because let's face it, after 1000s of years, no one is any closer to answering that question.
Calling yourself agnostic or atheist is not dishonest if you mean it, and not lazy if you've sincerely wrestled with the question.
We've all pondered the big 'G'. But does it get you closer to enlightenment? I would say 'no', because let's face it, after 1000s of years, no one is any closer to answering that question.
Calling yourself agnostic or atheist is not dishonest if you mean it, and not lazy if you've sincerely wrestled with the question.
Well, I guess there's a difference between mankind coming to a conclusion about "the big G" (as you so delightfully put it), and an individual coming to a conclusion about his personal view of the situation.
I find that a good way to deal with questions about God in Buddhism is to start by asking the questionner to define what he or she means by the word. This will usually make it possible to give an answer specific to the questionner's idea of God without having to endorse global atheism or theism.
If the questionner persist then we could say that for Middle Way Buddhism nothing really exists, and this would include any God we might imagine, leaving only the God of Dionysius and the Mystical Theology, which lies beyond the coincidence of contradictories and cannot be said to exist or not-exist, which is plenty confusing enough to divert the questionner from trapping you into a extreme answer.
@Florian The Mystical Theology you are referring to is central to the ancient Eastern Church and has not been lost. The Church and its theology remain to this day intact and distinct from the myriad of Western forms despite the confusion of many to the contrary. I think this is why you see so much attachment in the West to concepts or notions about God whether Christian, Atheist, or Buddhist.
I find that a good way to deal with questions about God in Buddhism is to start by asking the questionner to define what he or she means by the word.
I usually do that, often people can't really answer the question.
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DavidA human residing in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Ancestral territory of the Erie, Haudenosaunee, Huron-Wendat, Mississauga and Neutral First NationsVeteran
edited October 2012
To me, God is not an all knowing deity that decided to create everything but the very way of all things (the Tao, the universe, the process of cause and effect or even karma) in the process of realisation/awakening. Perhaps the reason there is rebirth for us until we completely wake up is that God cannot be completely realised until every single aspect has gained clear awakening.
Just a little something I have no faith in but feel makes sense for some reason or another.
God is nothing special I don't think. It can all be very mundane or it can be positively divine but it's still the same place.
Comments
Buddhists don't even believe the same thing about Buddha. (insert smiley face here)
Good point!
I definitely agree that 90% of Buddhist forum conversations would stop, but that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
Call me by my true names
Do not say that I'll depart tomorrow
because even today I still arrive.
Look deeply: I arrive in every second
to be a bud on a spring branch,
to be a tiny bird, with wings still fragile,
learning to sing in my new nest,
to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower,
to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.
I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry,
in order to fear and to hope,
the rhythm of my heart is the birth and
death of all that are alive.
I am the mayfly metamorphosing
on the surface of the river,
and I am the bird which, when spring comes,
arrives in time to eat the mayfly.
I am the frog swimming happily
in the clear water of a pond,
and I am also the grass-snake who,
approaching in silence,
feeds itself on the frog.
I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones,
my legs as thin as bamboo sticks,
and I am the arms merchant,
selling deadly weapons to Uganda.
I am the twelve year old girl,
refugee on a small boat,
who throws herself into the ocean
after being raped by a sea pirate,
and I am the pirate, my heart not yet capable
of seeing and loving.
I am a member of the politburo,
with plenty of power in my hands,
and I am the man who has to pay his
"debt of blood" to my people,
dying slowly in a forced labor camp.
My joy is like spring, so warm
it makes flowers bloom in all walks of life.
My pain is like a river of tears, so full
it fills up the four oceans.
Please call me by my true names,
so I can hear all my cries and my laughs at once,
so I can see that my joy and pain are one.
Please call me by my true names,
so I can wake up,
and so the door of my heart can be left open,
the door of compassion.
Thich Nhat Hanh.
It makes me sad that you actually still get attacked though. I can relate to that, and thus i feel a strong urge to defend you, although im sure you dont need defending.
personally I think that there is some pretty serious good hidden in the new testament, in the quran, in freemasonic literature, even shinto, vodoun and it's ilk. but they just arent even remotely close to that higher universal flavor, the massive comprehensive brilliance that buddhist scriptures are. honestly, Ive had my nose buried in sakyamuni's scriptures for years, and on the off occasion that i glance at some other later religious texts, i see many faint echos of buddhism, especially the Dhammapada. But these warped echos do clearly seem to me to lack the original integrity and depth of the prime source.
basically what im saying is, I hope that you're never even just a little intimidated by the exclusivity folks.. even if they are family members. I think that,,,, it;s probably better to just sort of pat them on the head, and think ' i know deep down you mean well', sometimes i do want them to know that we can fight back, and do so without fear and with great effectiveness.
Its sometimes hard for those of us who grew up in that environment... seems like most of them either still harbor all kinds of terror and guilt, or they embrace a bitter atheism out of anger.
So...definitely I think a lot of the folks around here are reticent to mention god at all, wanting to put as much daylight between them and christianity, theism as possible... i totally understand that. I wouldnt blame anyone for being bitter.
anyways, im rambling.
Calling yourself agnostic or atheist is not dishonest if you mean it, and not lazy if you've sincerely wrestled with the question.
If the questionner persist then we could say that for Middle Way Buddhism nothing really exists, and this would include any God we might imagine, leaving only the God of Dionysius and the Mystical Theology, which lies beyond the coincidence of contradictories and cannot be said to exist or not-exist, which is plenty confusing enough to divert the questionner from trapping you into a extreme answer.
The Mystical Theology you are referring to is central to the ancient Eastern Church and has not been lost. The Church and its theology remain to this day intact and distinct from the myriad of Western forms despite the confusion of many to the contrary. I think this is why you see so much attachment in the West to concepts or notions about God whether Christian, Atheist, or Buddhist.
Just a little something I have no faith in but feel makes sense for some reason or another.
God is nothing special I don't think. It can all be very mundane or it can be positively divine but it's still the same place.