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beyond time
oceancaldera207
Veteran
Advice for beginners:
Don't be so quick to bypass the ancient scriptures. I know a few early seekers who have developed a very ingrained opinion that the buddha sakyamuni's scriptures are somehow outdated and are not pertinent to them or this day and age.
Unfortunately this opinion has been reinforced by some modern 'commentators' who are widely accepted as being 'experts' in buddhism. :wtf:
:facepalm:
I was very lucky and found the real scriptures very early.
They are by nature not easily understood, but what they teach are the highest principles, the utterly profound, the most amazing things you can imagine. They are so carefully crafted, so painstakingly worded... they are truly priceless. And they are beyond time; they are just as pertinent now as they were then.
It's all right to read them and not understand them at first, or to be confused. At first I used to get quite a headache from them...now I feel so grateful to have them.
But please for your own sake, don't go for the easy answers and stupid opinions laid out by deceptive commentaries.
I was in the bookstore the other day, and of a section of about 40 books on buddhism, there were only two real scriptures ( the lotus sutra, and a buddhist bible, which is a collection of excerpts).
I am reminded of the story of Hui-Neng, who received the status and robe of 'zen patriarch' even though he was an just illiterate woodcutter and had no status within the monastery. While the monks there were just paying lip service, He is the one who really understood the teaching, so he received the robe from the grandmaster.. as a result of this he had to run for his life from the jealous monks who had wanted his position. I think that a lot of what is written and sold today as commentary and such is taken seriously because these people are self proclaimed gurus, or Tibetans, or they have PhDs in eastern religion, or they have money making organizations and centers... I think that a lot of these people are of the same cloth that persecuted Hui-neng.
I hate to be so inflammatory, but I see so much garbage out there, and no one stands up and calls them on it.
Anyway, here are some excellent scriptures, the words of Sakyamuni Buddha
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/comment/230626/#Comment_230626
Don't be so quick to bypass the ancient scriptures. I know a few early seekers who have developed a very ingrained opinion that the buddha sakyamuni's scriptures are somehow outdated and are not pertinent to them or this day and age.
Unfortunately this opinion has been reinforced by some modern 'commentators' who are widely accepted as being 'experts' in buddhism. :wtf:
:facepalm:
I was very lucky and found the real scriptures very early.
They are by nature not easily understood, but what they teach are the highest principles, the utterly profound, the most amazing things you can imagine. They are so carefully crafted, so painstakingly worded... they are truly priceless. And they are beyond time; they are just as pertinent now as they were then.
It's all right to read them and not understand them at first, or to be confused. At first I used to get quite a headache from them...now I feel so grateful to have them.
But please for your own sake, don't go for the easy answers and stupid opinions laid out by deceptive commentaries.
I was in the bookstore the other day, and of a section of about 40 books on buddhism, there were only two real scriptures ( the lotus sutra, and a buddhist bible, which is a collection of excerpts).
I am reminded of the story of Hui-Neng, who received the status and robe of 'zen patriarch' even though he was an just illiterate woodcutter and had no status within the monastery. While the monks there were just paying lip service, He is the one who really understood the teaching, so he received the robe from the grandmaster.. as a result of this he had to run for his life from the jealous monks who had wanted his position. I think that a lot of what is written and sold today as commentary and such is taken seriously because these people are self proclaimed gurus, or Tibetans, or they have PhDs in eastern religion, or they have money making organizations and centers... I think that a lot of these people are of the same cloth that persecuted Hui-neng.
I hate to be so inflammatory, but I see so much garbage out there, and no one stands up and calls them on it.
Anyway, here are some excellent scriptures, the words of Sakyamuni Buddha
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/comment/230626/#Comment_230626
3
Comments
The important thing is the advice and the quality of the advice. As you mention, it is quality dharma.
One also has to remember that new formulations are not necessarily improvements, if they have no basis.
The scriptures have to be presented in a way that accords with present sensibilities. We also have to take into account the nature of people. Most things need to find a Middle Way.
As for garbage . . . sometimes when eating from bins . . . we learn to appreciate food . . .
There may even be garbage sangha (flames to the usual hell realms) but integrity and the capacity to sift, is our responsibility . . . :thumbup:
Here is a writing of Shitou Xiqian which he wrote when there was a controversy between northern and southern schools. His descendents include soto Zen students.
Identity of Relative and Absolute
The mind of the Great Sage of India was intimately
conveyed from west to east.
Among human beings are wise ones and fools,
But in the Way there is no northern or southern Patriarch.
The subtle source is clear and bright; the tributary
streams flow through the darkness.
To be attached to things is illusion;
To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment.
Each and all, the subjective and objective spheres are related,
and at the same time, independent.
Related, yet working differently, though each keeps its own place.
Form makes the character and appearance different;
Sounds distinguish comfort and discomfort.
The dark makes all words one; the brightness distinguishes good and bad phrases.
The four elements return to their nature as a child to its mother.
Fire is hot, wind moves, water is wet, earth hard.
Eyes see, ears hear, nose smells, tongue tastes the salt and sour.
Each is independent of the other; cause and effect must return to the great reality
Like leaves that come from the same root.
The words high and low are used relatively.
Within light there is darkness, but do not try to understand that darkness;
Within darkness there is light, but do not look for that light.
Light and darkness are a pair, like the foot before
and the foot behind, in walking. Each thing has its own intrinsic value
and is related to everything else in function and position.
Ordinary life fits the absolute as a box ands its lid.
The absolute works together with the relative like two arrows meeting in mid-air.
Reading words you should grasp the great reality. Do not judge by any standards.
If you do not see the Way, you do not see it even as you walk on it.
When you walk the Way, it is not near, it is not far.
If you are deluded, you are mountains and rivers away from it.
I respectfully say to those who wish to be enlightened:
Do not waste your time by night or day.
So if old scripture would sell then they would surely publish the scripture. But there is not enough demand from readers. Why do you think there is less demand? I think that the popular books are easier to understand.
Actually I am the exact opposite of condescending.
Often a teacher tells you that you are very far from understanding, that you need lots of help to understand sutras, that they, the teacher knows much more than you.
I will tell you that you may not be far from understanding, that you don't need lots of 'help' to understand sutras *just perseverance , and that you are really on your own.
I am a firm believer that even the most intelligent person will eventually start to believe in personal limitations if someone keeps telling them that they exist.. I believe that many teachers are very skilled in subtly telling you that you have limitations.
You may think that I'm some random internet poster saying these things to get a rise out of people, but the truth is that I have had such great reward from the sutras, and there was a time in the beginning when I could never imagine that they could be so amazing. { I have made mention around here about the extreme positivity, lightness, pleasure, relief, amazement that I have garnered from sutras, but no one is interested in that. Not even a curious probe. I've said: I'm just a regular imperfect person who has gained some incredible things from some very old dusty texts. but no.. I only get responses when I express doubt about certain teachers. I find that very strange... but I think it's just that no one thinks that it is possible...I think that a lot of people think that it's all just something to argue about. }
So, anyway, really what I am saying around here is what I feel that I would have most benefited from myself when I was first becoming interested in enlightenment many years ago. I feel that it is my duty to myself and others to do so. Whether anyone listens or takes it seriously... it's out of my hands; but at least I know that I tried.
I very much enjoyed
"The absolute works together with the relative like two arrows meeting in mid-air. "
Thank you for sharing this @Jeffrey , what a wonderful work
Thich Nhat Hanh and the Dalai Lama are both very good with this but I see a contrast between their presentations. Ultimately, we have to be lamps unto ourselves (trust the inner b.s. detector) while seeing our interdependence at the same time.
We are all going to see the big picture differently and bring our own contribution to the table. That is the nature of uniqueness.
@Jeffrey... I know what you mean about the sectarianism. People get too caught up in the ribbons and bows sometimes.
Well, last night i spent 5 hours putting together a huge downloadable sutra link collection thread as a parting gift*, but the mods wont let it through, probably due to some copyright issue... it was a very neutral thread.
then, I typed up a nice equanimous post here which got deleted with a system crash, so i'm quite frustrated. also tomorrow is my fifth 12 hour shift, and Ive only gotten a few hours sleep in the last few days.
basically, i said; Yes I do disagree with certain people's presentation of buddhism. I really dont know anything about sects or which sect does what or believes what. Id only be interested for the sake of curiosity and cultural understanding.
the teaching is complicated and delicate and must be done with care, and the buddha was a expert at this. Like a well trained surgeon doing very complicated surgery. It's not outdated.
There are volumes upon volumes of sutras painstakingly passed on through hundreds of years.. I wonder how many people even realize this.
I dont believe in sects. I do encourage independent practice. I do believe in the sangha, as sanctuary, not indoctrination centers with military style rank promotion. Yep, there is a lot of crap out there.. and sometimes it;s hard to tell the difference, especially as a beginner.
@jeffrey ""there is no logical connection between the quality of sutras (positive) and the quality of popular books (negative). ""
To clarify, i think that not all popular texts are bad, many are, many are very bad. But there's really nothing like the sutras.
I agree with the Dalai Lama's texts and speech. he gives a very good insight into the cultivated mind, speaks very carefully and with wisdom, doesnt slather stupid interpretations all over sutras and genuinely seeks to bring peace to as many and various people as possible. He doesnt speak in order to make himself sound important, nor does he speak too much, rather, he speaks in such a way that someone with affinity might sense truth and go investigate for themselves. IMO this is an enlightened person.
As i have said, the sutras are incredible beyond belief,careful, intricate, genius. Dont underestimate them because they are difficult to understand. They are more powerful than you know.
true buddhism is universal. The sutras are universal even though the imagery seems to be specific. Like Ive said before, the fantastic imagery and so forth is there for a specific reason as a teaching tool.
*Anyway, I only post here a few months out of the year, and winter is here where I live so it's time to go. I hope the mods end up posting that thread.. it was quite extensive.
goodbye all and have a nice winter
OC207