Greeting Monks

Metallica

Hi practitioners

Would appreciate help on how to greet monks from different countries and schools.

Thai Monks
Tibetan lamas
Japanese priests
Sri Lankan monks

Please help me if you know!

Patr

Just put your palms together, as if carrying a small lotus bud in between, at chest height. Then a small bow.
I do the same for all monks, no exceptions!

One should only kneel if the particular master has personally earned your respect and not before, regardless of their rank, lineage, title......

Citta

That should do it...
Don't be surprised if some Tibetan monks/teachers gently bump your forehead with theirs...

vinlyn

I can only speak about Thai monks, and Patr is pretty much correct on that, although it is only in very ceremonial and formal meetings where you would be carrying lotuses. In Thailand the monk is considered technically more important that royalty, so it will be a fairly deep bow. Then again, a few monks will surprise you and shake hands...but never with a woman. A woman should NEVER touch a Thai monk.

Citta

vinlyn said:

I can only speak about Thai monks, and Patr

is pretty much correct on that, although it is only in very ceremonial and formal meetings where you would be carrying lotuses. In Thailand the monk is considered technically more important that royalty, so it will be a fairly deep bow. Then again, a few monks will surprise you and shake hands...but never with a woman. A woman should NEVER touch a Thai monk.

But as Federica pointed out recently some of the Forest Monks in the west DO shake hands and have other non sexual contact with women.

vinlyn

But you should never make that assumption ahead of time with a Thai monk. And of course, I am talking about Thai monks in Thailand (although I've yet to see an exception by Thai monks here in the West; not saying it doesn't happen, but it is not common). It even goes so far as to a woman not handing something directly to a monk.

But, if it is that rare monk who makes the exception, let the monk make the move.

I happened to be on a plane within Thailand one time when a stewardess handed a monk something...can't recall now...it was either the meal or water...and it was a major problem.

Citta

For whom ?

vinlyn

The monk was clearly upset, several of the passengers were angry, and the stewardess began crying.

Citta, if you don't want to believe what the overwhelmingly standard rule of behavior is in Thailand, then don't. I really don't care. But having traveled there extensively, and having lived there for a couple of years, it's the way it is. Many Thais, perhaps even most, don't think a monk's mother should touch her son while he is ordained.

And just for the record, I think it's another of the dumb rules Thai monks and lay people are held to. But whether I think it's dumb or not has nothing to do with what is seen as standard behavior in Thailand.

Citta

I dont doubt for a moment that you have described the standard approach to monks in Thailand vinlyn. I have seen it myself. However as Metallica asks about a whole range of Buddhist personages I suspect that he/she does not live in Thailand.
The situation in the west is changing. As you say..best to find out what one's local requirement is.

karasti

They know that monks come out of a woman's body, right? (I know, they aren't monks at that time and haven't taken vows, just sayin') So in the case of the monk on the airplane, what would have been the proper thing to do? It doesn't sound like she touched him, but touched him by extending an item to him. Would it have been better to offer the item for him to take or what would have been better?

vinlyn

As I recall the incident...and it was a while ago...she was in a hurry to get all served on a relatively short flight (Bangkok to Chiang Mai). Although I don't recall that time specifically, it is fairly typical for one male steward to be on most significant flights within the country.

I really don't know what the solution would be, and as I said, I think it's a dumb rule where they go to unreasonable lengths because of the Precept that says a woman must not have contact with a monk in terms of lust. Way overdone.

It's sort of like on Thai buses, where monks get free rides. If a monk gets on and wants to sit on the wide back seat, any woman sitting on that wide back seat will simply stand in the aisle so as not to sit on the same seat as the monk (and yes, occasionally I have seen women remain seated in such a situation, providing they are way on the other side of the seat).

how

With respect as Patr posted with a manifestation of your own meditation.
Monks often spend much of their greeting time in relationship to what folks want or don't want. I see one's respect of a monk and their chosen vocation best demonstrated with your own representation of mindfull openness.

David

vinlyn said:

But you should never make that assumption ahead of time with a Thai monk. And of course, I am talking about Thai monks in Thailand (although I've yet to see an exception by Thai monks here in the West; not saying it doesn't happen, but it is not common). It even goes so far as to a woman not handing something directly to a monk.

But, if it is that rare monk who makes the exception, let the monk make the move.

I happened to be on a plane within Thailand one time when a stewardess handed a monk something...can't recall now...it was either the meal or water...and it was a major problem.

It sounds like the monk had a lot of baggage...

Why can't a woman hand a monk something? Would his practice be so fragile as to make him mad with lust when around women? Does he consider women to be filthy?

I can't imagine... Major problem for somebody on the road to enlightenment being handed a drink or something to eat... I just don't get it... Did he have to start over or something?

vinlyn

In my view it's silly Thai tradition...but it's the way it is.

robot

@vinlyn I noticed that in some circumstances people would bow with their hands pressed together at face or forehead height. I assumed that it was a sign of respect for a superior. Is it appropriate to greet a monk like that? I'm heading back to SE Asia for the winter and I would like to get it right. Thanks.

Metallica

Thanks for all the debate guys. However, anyone got any idea what I can say to the monks from different regions? As I look after our temple's art gallery, I think it would be nice to use the monk's own language to greet them if they choose to visit our temple.

So far I know Tibetan is "Tashi Delek".

vinlyn

robot said:

@vinlyn I noticed that in some circumstances people would bow with their hands pressed together at face or forehead height. I assumed that it was a sign of respect for a superior. Is it appropriate to greet a monk like that? I'm heading back to SE Asia for the winter and I would like to get it right. Thanks.

In Thailand, that symbol -- "the wai" -- varies depending on the person you are greeting. So for monks the wai would tend to be at forehead level.

Jason

vinlyn said:

robot said:

@vinlyn I noticed that in some circumstances people would bow with their hands pressed together at face or forehead height. I assumed that it was a sign of respect for a superior. Is it appropriate to greet a monk like that? I'm heading back to SE Asia for the winter and I would like to get it right. Thanks.

In Thailand, that symbol -- "the wai" -- varies depending on the person you are greeting. So for monks the wai would tend to be at forehead level.

Yeah. The way it was explained to me was the higher the wai, the more respect you're showing, e.g., holding the thumbs at about the forehead level = lots of respect, which is used for elders, monastics, Thai royalty, etc.

vinlyn

^ Exactly.

For a good friend it would be more at chin level.

Chest level is perhaps a person you don't know at all.

A teacher is very high...at least nose level. As a principal, I was often seen as a teacher of teachers, so that was a little higher...perhaps eye level.

It's a very hierarchical society...and age factors into it, also.

robot

Is it the same in Laos and Cambodia?

vinlyn

I really don't know. It is in the border areas with Thailand, where the cultures are heavily mixed, but not sure how it is within either country.

Patr

Very true, women are not allowed to touch Thai monks, whether its acceptable to foreigners mindset is beside the point. When in Thailand, do as the Thais do!!



Vinlyn, the clasped hand should be 'hollow', as if carrying a lotus bud, not a real one.

Metallica

What to say in Sri Lanka and Japan au?

vinlyn

Patr said:

Very true, women are not allowed to touch Thai monks, whether its acceptable to foreigners mindset is beside the point. When in Thailand, do as the Thais do!!



Vinlyn, the clasped hand should be 'hollow', as if carrying a lotus bud, not a real one.

Huh?

driedleaf

vinlyn said:

In my view it's silly Thai tradition...but it's the way it is.

It's actually one of the 227 precepts that the Theravadin monks follow. It is really not a "silly Thai tradition" actually, but an actual precept or training rule that has been handed down from generation to generation of Theravadin monks since the time of the Buddha. It is a sensitive issue because Monks have a very high stature in some places, and certain situations can be misunderstood. They can lose their monk status and be disrobed over these kinds of misunderstandings. The monks have to be sensitive towards these things because they are the teachers of the precepts. They have to teach that precepts are an important part of the practice. Without the precepts, meditation and discernment will not have any footing.

vinlyn

driedleaf said:

vinlyn said:

In my view it's silly Thai tradition...but it's the way it is.

It's actually one of the 227 precepts that the Theravadin monks follow. It is really not a "silly Thai tradition" actually, but an actual precept or training rule that has been handed down from generation to generation of Theravadin monks since the time of the Buddha. It is a sensitive issue because Monks have a very high stature in some places, and certain situations can be misunderstood. They can lose their monk status and be disrobed over these kinds of misunderstandings. The monks have to be sensitive towards these things because they are the teachers of the precepts. They have to teach that precepts are an important part of the practice. Without the precepts, meditation and discernment will not have any footing.

Actually, I can't find a Precept that matches the tradition. What I have found is a Precept that talks about "lustful touching" by a monk or to a monk.

Whether or not it is "silly" is for each of us to decide as an individual. Not all the 227 Precepts are wise. For example, monks are not to teach the Dhamma to someone who has an umbrella in his hand. Or who is wearing wooden-soled sandals or shoes. Or who is in a vehicle. Or who is clasping his knees. Somehow I doubt that Buddhism would be affected one iota if a monk broke those rules.

Yes, I understand fully the consequences of such actions for monks. That doesn't mean I can't think some of the rules are silly.

RebeccaS

An umbrella? Really? That's hilarious.

Metallica

Okay, before it gets very silly.

Therevada school is known as the way of the elders because they strictly up holds all the Monastic rules set down by the Buddha 2500 years ago. So these rules are not SILLY at all.

Thats why we have the Mahayana school who are more flexible at adjusting and removing some of the rules to suit the times. Of course it is based on wisdom and common sense. So very important will not be changed!

The Buddha was compassionate enough to give 5 precepts for us lay practitioners to follow. SO why are we so arrogant to attack Monastic rules? Keep in mind especially the monks 2500 years ago are very diligent practitioners that are set to become Arhats who sever the root of vexation and suffering that ties them to samsara. Of course we cannot expect them to still behave like how we would behave.

If Vinyln doesn't like, you don't have to go to Thai Land to be a monk. If you don't like what you see in Thai culture, you don't have to live there.

Patr

In Sri Lanka, monks are addressed as 'Bhante'.

driedleaf

RebeccaS said:

An umbrella? Really? That's hilarious.

I don't know the reason why this precept was created exactly. It seemed weird to me at first too when I read it. But you have to understand that the precepts that were created for the monks, since the days of the Buddha, are somewhat like the laws of today in that, some were added due to an incident that occurred. Perhaps there was a monk that was beaten with an umbrella for teaching the dhamma. I don't know, I'm only guessing.

Jason

RebeccaS said:

An umbrella? Really? That's hilarious.

It was a cultural thing in ancient India. Thanissaro Bhikkhu explains this rule in Buddhist Monastic Code Vol. I: Chapter 10:

An umbrella or sunshade, at that time, was considered a sign of rank. According to the Commentary, this rule applies regardless of whether the umbrella is open or closed, as long as one's listener has his/her hand on it. If, however, the umbrella is on the listener's lap, resting against his/her shoulder, or if someone else is holding it over the listener's head, there is no offense in teaching him/her any Dhamma. This last point may have been offered as a concession to royalty at the time.

vinlyn

That doesn't make it any more central to the important issues in Buddhism, nor does it say much for a religious culture that clings to outmoded rules. We would make fun of the Catholics if that was their rule.

Jason

vinlyn said:

That doesn't make it any more central to the important issues in Buddhism, nor does it say much for a religious culture that clings to outmoded rules. We would make fun of the Catholics if that was their rule.

Not sure who or what this is addressed to, but if it's in response to this, I never said it did; just offering an explanation of its origins.

vinlyn

Cool.

lamaramadingdong

So I guess "Hiya Buddy! How they hangin'?" is out?

Beej

What about a "chest bump"?

Daozen

Yo, mo!

FoibleFull

For Tibetan monks:
Hands together, chest height, bow slightly, saying "Tashi Delek" (TAH-shee De-LAY", meaning fortunate circumstance, in other words that you are happy to meet them. This is a general Tibetan greeting).
Or you can just say their name and give a slight bow.

For more formal greeting, honoring them, you approach them with a Tibetan katah (ceremonial silk scarf) stretching out over your hands, hands palm up, about the same distance apart as your shoulders). As you do your slight bow, you extend your hands slightly out toward the monk.
The monk takes the scarf and drapes it over your neck as a blessing. Occasionally, they keep the scarf and this is supposed to be a great honor.

Never touch the monk, regardless of your gender. The more-Westernized monks may reach out and shake your hand, but this is left to their discretion.

If you wish to make an offering of money, you are supposed to put it in an envelope. And it is best offered with a katah, the envelope held in one hand and the katah stretched out across both palms.
Other ways to make offerings is to fold up the katah and extend the offering with the folded katah on top of it.
Anytime you want a favor from/hearing with a lama, it is traditional to make an offering or some gesture of appreciation if you cannot afford an offering of money. They will not refuse you, but it is good to keep the karmic obligations "paid". A flower for the altar, some saffron for their water, a bag of rice (or any other food), a peacock feather ... these are all suitable offerings.