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Emptiness

After reading a couple of books where emptiness is mentioned I finally pieced together that emptiness means emptiness of inherent self-existence. For example a book is composed of paper,ink, and a conglomeration of ideas. Emptiness means things are made up of other things and therefore lack self-existence.
Am I correct ?
oceancaldera207

Comments

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Yes that is related to emptiness at the intellectual level from what I have 'grokked' over the past 10 years. There are other teachings on emptiness sort of views such as 'mind only'. But the way you mention is the way HHDL teaches emptiness or at least it sounds like it to me.
  • Yes that is related to emptiness at the intellectual level from what I have 'grokked' over the past 10 years. There are other teachings on emptiness sort of views such as 'mind only'. But the way you mention is the way HHDL teaches emptiness or at least it sounds like it to me.
    Hi ! @Jeffrey
    I think I got this definition of emptiness from several of HHDL's books so that might be why it sounds like him.
  • oceancaldera207oceancaldera207 Veteran
    edited October 2012

    After reading a couple of books where emptiness is mentioned I finally pieced together that emptiness means emptiness of inherent self-existence. For example a book is composed of paper,ink, and a conglomeration of ideas. Emptiness means things are made up of other things and therefore lack self-existence.
    Am I correct ?

    I think that you are very much on the right track here. Then, we can say that these compositional factors, the paper, the ink, the words, the ideas they represent; all these are not solid either, because they too have compositional parts and factors relating to each other on which they depend in order to exist, And these and all parts and factors are also in a constant flux..even if something changes slowly it is still changing. ie nothing truly stands alone.. so really that means that we cant grasp any single thing, we can't say that there is one single thing that exists. Most incredibly, this also applies to ideas,thoughts, concepts, self etc.
    Therefore, we say that all things are empty, lacking self-existence.

    Basically, the teaching isn't just that certain attachments are bad, the deeper more hidden teaching is that all attachment is basically impossible, and we just are confused in thinking that we can grasp or attach to anything at all. {this 'confusion' is no simple matter; it's something deeep}
    Now what happens when you realize the truth in all this, even for a moment... that;s where the path really starts. PS: it's not at all negative, although it may seem that way at first. It's really very very comfortable!
    ...alright thats the best I can do! help me out here guys!


  • Jeffrey said:

    Yes that is related to emptiness at the intellectual level from what I have 'grokked' over the past 10 years. There are other teachings on emptiness sort of views such as 'mind only'. But the way you mention is the way HHDL teaches emptiness or at least it sounds like it to me.

    I agree, it's certainly the co-dependent origination approach, a favorite of the Dalai Lama. I think other approaches are equally valid, and lead to the same conclusion.
    Really I think for most of us emptiness starts out as this terrible, cold hole, an abstract nightmare. Later if we can put it into use, it becomes an 'exposer' of pure sweet essence, versatile tool, a friend, with a million different sweet flavors.

    PS i know exposer is not a word, but i can't think of a better one.


  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    It is correct to say you are wrong.

    It is also correct to say I am wrong.

    It is correct to say nothing but that would be empty of everything except intent
    It is far better to say everything, realise it is empty and have Nothing to say.
    :scratch:
    Jeffrey
  • One way to explain emptiness or sunyata (a better term) is that it is not no-thing.

    Taking an example of a chariot. A chariot does not inherently exist. An intelligent mind decided to put wheels, axles etc. together and called that collection a chariot.

    Did the chariot exist before it was invented? I pods, planes, ships? The human mind is capable of forming ideas and concepts. From these ideas we invent things. What about the concept of nations, universities, electricity etc.

    Ask yourself is there such a thing as a Siberian tiger? The tiger doesn't think it comes from Siberia.

    The big delusion is the believe in a fixed, unchanging, self/soul which is really nothing more than a collection of everchanging parts or aggregates/khandas - body, feeling, perception, thoughts and consciousness.

    Jeffrey
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Hi lobster.

    'It is far better to say everything, realise it is empty and have Nothing to say. '

    To add to your statement, I found a quote that might be useful.
    When you have your awakening, you will not know why it has come about as it has. Should you reflect upon this, you will see that, prior to your awakening, whatever you thought it would be like is neither here nor there when actually experiencing an awakening. And even though it will be different from all the various ways that you may have previously thought, this does not mean that those views are fundamentally wrong and have played no part in your awakening… Whenever you think that your views are useless, there is something that you need to recognize: namely, that you are afraid that an awakening will be overpowering.

    Shobogenzo, Yui Butsu Yo Butsu, Hubert Nearman
    And then that you were and are not.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran

    After reading a couple of books where emptiness is mentioned I finally pieced together that emptiness means emptiness of inherent self-existence. For example a book is composed of paper,ink, and a conglomeration of ideas. Emptiness means things are made up of other things and therefore lack self-existence.
    Am I correct ?

    Yes you are there :)

    Our Job is to negate the Inherent existence of Self grasping that is the cause of Samsara once you know what you are doing and with continual effort accomplishment will not be far away. :)
  • Or is it our job to recognise the non-existence of self-grasping that deludes us into thinking that Samsara has a cause?
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    Florian said:

    Or is it our job to recognise the non-existence of self-grasping that deludes us into thinking that Samsara has a cause?

    False if Samsara had no cause there could be no Liberation.
  • PrairieGhostPrairieGhost Veteran
    edited October 2012
    Samsara is caused by ignorance. Ignorance has no linear cause; it is beginningless. But the non-linear cause of ignorance is consciousness (of). And the non-linear cause of consciousness (of) is ignorance.

    I add (of), because in Buddhism consciousness is not a substance, nor does the cessation of consciousness equal death or unconsciousness, as in the material sense of the word.
  • PremaSagar:
    Am I correct ?
    Yep, but the implications of your correctness might be overlooked. As you use emptiness, it is intended to show us that phenomena have no intrinsically (or innermost being) — they are illusory like a gandharva's castle. Yet we glom onto things believing that they are real including the psycho-physical body (the five aggregates).
    oceancaldera207
  • FoibleFullFoibleFull Canada Veteran
    Emptiness is understood two ways.
    One way is by experiencing it, seeing it on a non-verbal, experiential level.
    One way is intellectually, through reading and figuring it out ... which is like reading about what an orgasm feels like. It doesn't really give you a strong comprehension of emptiness.

    All of us ... we need to remember that true understanding of Buddhism is not an academic or intellectual pursuit. We find the understanding within us, through our meditation and mindfulness.
    It is important not to try to hard to understand, but to work very hard at doing the actual practices. Understanding will dawn in its own good time. But to focus too hard on trying to intellectually grasp something ... that ties us up even more in the very elements that keep us bound in ignorance. We need to let go of our intellectual need for "certainty" and "understanding" and only then does wisdom start to slowly develop.
    PremaSagarRebeccaS
  • I think there is an argument to be made that emptiness is a syncategorematic term, meaning that it can't stand on its own (examples are 'large', 'good', and of course, 'empty'). We can say that the five aggregates are empty of essential nature/innermost being (svabhava) meaning that they are unreal; mere fictions. Their emptiness is thus a lack of innermost being. On the other hand, the highest emptiness pertains to Mind that is totally empty of adventitious perturbations, habit-energy (vasana) etc.
  • Thank all of you for your responses !
    lobster
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