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It seems like a fallacy on a massive scale. I don't like X, Y supports/uses X, therefore I don't like Y. If we were talking about something that really matters then I could get with it, but the smoking of marijuana is trivial to the nth degree.
The problem is that the issue is not trivial to millions of people.
If you are at home most of the time or only touch the world on your own terms, you can afford to be choosy. You might lose out on the company of some good people but as you said, you are satisfied with your group, so no issue.
Everybody makes choices about who their friends are.
True, but my point was that out in the world where people interact not by choice necessarily, friendships can develop which do not depend on sharing habits and views.
I'm not sure I would class those as friendships.
I guess you wouldn't. Rebecca might not either. I would and do.
I have friends who don't share all of my interests, of course I do, and I'm far from anti-social, but I don't mind excluding a fringe group from my life. They simply don't belong here.
However, I would class pot smoking as a lifestyle choice, not merely something people do like watching bad movies or listening to pop music or voting wrong ( ) or wearing ugly clothes. The same as with people who make other lifestyle choices that I don't agree with - polygamists for example - they just don't belong in my life. I have no ill-will towards them, I'm just don't want them around me.
If you are at home most of the time or only touch the world on your own terms, you can afford to be choosy. You might lose out on the company of some good people but as you said, you are satisfied with your group, so no issue.
Everybody makes choices about who their friends are.
True, but my point was that out in the world where people interact not by choice necessarily, friendships can develop which do not depend on sharing habits and views.
I'm not sure I would class those as friendships.
I guess you wouldn't. Rebecca might not either. I would and do.
As a school principal, in my school I had 7 other administrators and counselors, 65 teachers, 1000 students, 2000 parents, custodians, kitchen personnel, nurse, aides. Then I had all those administrators I met with in varying frequencies at 26 middle schools, 26 high schools, and well over 100 elementary schools.
No, I counted the vast majority of those several thousand people as colleagues or clients, not as friends.
I like what you said there (above). Pretty much speaks to what I was thinking, as well. Kind of reminds me of the old Christian (?) saying -- "Hate the sin, not the sinner..."
On one hand, I completely understand @RebeccaS 's POV. I do not like associating with drunks; I find them obnoxious, rarely amusing, and for reasons of personal experiences I'd rather not revisit, I get an actual feeling of real physical and emotional unease when around drunk people, (men, especially). But I don't let that translate, for me, into an intolerance towards every single person who drinks any amount of liquor at all, especially when not even around me. I can sit in a pub with friends who drink in moderation. They might get a little silly, loosen up a bit more than they usually are... as long as that line is not crossed - the line into real drunkenness - I'm ok with it all. (Setting aside Buddhism and the precepts for a moment) I might even have a couple of drinks myself if it was a special occasion. I'm not anti-drinking, just anti-drunkenness.
I just think it's a shame and unfair that anyone would find out a simple fact about me personally (I smoke weed) and immediately consider me not worthy of friendship or respect based on that, and that alone.
But what about the other facts: Like -- 1. I could easily pass a drug screen right now at this very minute, because I have not smoked any weed in more than 3 months, even though I have some .... and 2. that when I do smoke, I do so in my own home and never EVER drive under the influence, and 3. that I smoke now and again for pain and insomnia issues, as well as for recreational reasons. 4. I would also never smoke in front of/around people who did not like it, either. The idea that none of that is taken into consideration before judging me, and others like me, "pot head losers" or "weird" is pretty harsh and judgmental. Yeah, and it hurts, too.
Yeah, some people will judge you for what you do, and they might be wrong about it, but it's not your loss at the end of the day. There are a million people out there who share your views to be friends with, why worry about everyone else? I just don't think it's a big deal.
Plenty of people like me, plenty of people don't. That's life.
Like Vinlyn said, we all draw the line somewhere, and mine is drawn at pot. It's a personal choice and it works for me.
Some people draw the line at British girls who don't tolerate pot smokers and that works for them
Why not accept people for who they are and judge them only on how they behave towards you, & when they are in your company- and not for what goes on behind their bedroom door or in the privacy of their own home?
You really would opt out of a fun night out with (for example) the people you work with or go to class with because one of them is in a poly relationship and you don't approve of that lifestyle?
You would really not attend a party at a coworker's or boss' house because certain people might be there who do things you don't approve of, like smoke pot or sleep around more than you think is appropriate- even if none of that is going on right there at the party?
I guess I just don't understand those kinds of limitations set up for getting to know people...
Edit: Oops! I had this sitting in drafts for several minutes before I hit the post comment button.... I didn't see the two posts above this one at the time.
One shouldn't be forced to like stoners. That is a difference from stoners are losers. That second is wrong because it is putting an obviously subjective opinion as a fact.
If you are at home most of the time or only touch the world on your own terms, you can afford to be choosy. You might lose out on the company of some good people but as you said, you are satisfied with your group, so no issue.
Everybody makes choices about who their friends are.
True, but my point was that out in the world where people interact not by choice necessarily, friendships can develop which do not depend on sharing habits and views.
I'm not sure I would class those as friendships.
I guess you wouldn't. Rebecca might not either. I would and do.
As a school principal, in my school I had 7 other administrators and counselors, 65 teachers, 1000 students, 2000 parents, custodians, kitchen personnel, nurse, aides. Then I had all those administrators I met with in varying frequencies at 26 middle schools, 26 high schools, and well over 100 elementary schools.
No, I counted the vast majority of those several thousand people as colleagues or clients, not as friends.
Yes, you have lived a totally different kind of life than me. The fishing industry comparatively small here, numbered in the hundreds plus shoreworkers and tradespeople/suppliers. And it's is somewhat close knit. Regardless of which fishery we are in, we have the experience of being at sea in common. And boats/equipment. Lots to talk about.
They can do what they like. I'd go to a friend's party, and I'd be friendly and polite because that's who I am. But if I was throwing a party they wouldn't be invited. If I knew the party would be solely populated by users then no, I wouldn't go. An axe murderer can be as nice as pie to me, I'm not interested. It's easy to say that what people do in their own homes is none of my business, and that's partly right, but I don't just look at how people treat me. I look at how they treat the waiter and the maid, you know?
I think our lifestyle choices represent the condition of our soul, and I really took the "keep holy company" recommendation to heart.
I'll be wrong about some people, because there is no black and white when it comes to life and people, but I will hedge my bets. If only 5% of pot smokers are decent people, saying "no pot smokers in my life" is a good bet.
I will be wrong about some people, and I accept that, but like I said it's a loss I'm prepared to take.
For example, how many of us here count as true friends some ex-convicts? Former sexual predators? Former wife-beaters?
Or retarded people, or seriously physically handicapped people (e.g., spina bifida or polio), or homeless people, or...
We all draw lines. We all make choices.
We draw lines at different places, but if you're drawing the line at the consumption of marijuana then you're closing the door on about 50% of the Western world and straight-up offending about 99.8% of it.
Use of marijuana is so widespread as to be an indicator of nothing. It's a prejudice. Without prior knowledge of a persons drug taking knowledge, I doubt very much that anyone holding that view could neatly separate marijuana smokers from non-marijuana smokers. That's to say that opinions are formed on marijuana smokers not on whether they're good or bad people, but on the simple fact they smoke marijuana, that alone makes them bad - circular reasoning.
If I said that I've never met somebody who drives a car that I like I think I would be, probably quite rightfully, dismissed as being irrational. Personal values are great and we all have them no doubt, but they shouldn't be exempt from questioning or honest discussion I don't think.
I think for the bodhisattva vow you should be generous and friendly to all people including 'potheads', 'white trash', and 'fundies'. At the same time it's part of the vow that anyone that upsets you too much to practice you should get away from. And of course there are only a subset of Buddhists who have taken the bodhisattva vow.
according to the link, @Vinlyn, the USA is at 13.7% not under 9%, and that would be somewhere around 39-40 Million people out of the 305 million population of the USA. Even at 9% that would be close to 30 mil. (math is NOT my long suit, but I think that's right! )
Not that I want to argue about the numbers, because in all likelihood, none of the numbers are statistically correct, simply because of the bias and errors in collecting them. The government wants numbers to lean one way or another, depending on which side they are proving at the moment; pot smokers and those who support the freedom of choice for smoking and/or are against the WOD want them to lean another way, and self reporting surveys are always skewed in either direction for a few reasons.
I think we'd be missing the point by getting caught up on statistics, and with so many different surveys we won't agree.
My point was that if I said I've never met somebody I liked that eats meat or drives a car, I wouldn't be taken very seriously. It might be my personal values that eating meat and driving earth-destroying cars are bad, but to say I've not met a person engaged in such whom I liked would show that I've either not met many people, or I don't much like people altogether.
There's a quote some posts up about sins and sinners which expresses the point.
I think we'd be missing the point by getting caught up on statistics, and with so many different surveys we won't agree.
My point was that if I said I've never met somebody I liked that eats meat or drives a car, I wouldn't be taken very seriously. It might be my personal values that eating meat and driving earth-destroying cars are bad, but to say I've not met a person engaged in such whom I liked would show that I've either not met many people, or I don't much like people altogether.
There's a quote some posts up about sins and sinners which expresses the point.
@Phase7, you're the one who brought up numbers to begin with.
And I understand your other point. And I don't really care if you smoke pot or not. I agree that it's your choice. And it's my choice who I choose to associate with.
I think we'd be missing the point by getting caught up on statistics, and with so many different surveys we won't agree.
My point was that if I said I've never met somebody I liked that eats meat or drives a car, I wouldn't be taken very seriously. It might be my personal values that eating meat and driving earth-destroying cars are bad, but to say I've not met a person engaged in such whom I liked would show that I've either not met many people, or I don't much like people altogether.
There's a quote some posts up about sins and sinners which expresses the point.
@Phase7, you're the one who brought up numbers to begin with.
And I understand your other point. And I don't really care if you smoke pot or not. I agree that it's your choice. And it's my choice who I choose to associate with.
It's your choice, and it's my choice.
I'm not arguing for me. The reason I'm arguing this is that it's silly. If somebody said they'd never met a person opposed to marijuana that they liked, I'd be equally oppositional. It's just profound to me. I can only think that to think that the person can't much like people.
Anyway I won't argue anymore. I don't want to deny people their views and shout them down or make them feel that that's what I'm doing. Probably both beating a dead horse and repeating our views so I'm happy to leave it there.
Perhaps she just doesn't like being friends with or around people who smoke pot and are stoned all the time? I can relate to that.
I used to smoke every day when I was young and I was either smoking and stoned or looking to find my next bud to smoke and get stoned. I'm sure I was a pain in the arse and really dull to be around.
Having said that, I don't smoke any more but I have mates who partake maybe once every 3 to 6 months and don't care if they go without. They are lovely people....
I think we'd be missing the point by getting caught up on statistics, and with so many different surveys we won't agree.
My point was that if I said I've never met somebody I liked that eats meat or drives a car, I wouldn't be taken very seriously. It might be my personal values that eating meat and driving earth-destroying cars are bad, but to say I've not met a person engaged in such whom I liked would show that I've either not met many people, or I don't much like people altogether.
There's a quote some posts up about sins and sinners which expresses the point.
You can hang out with whoever you like and choose your associations based on whatever you feel is appropriate.
I stand by my choice, and I appreciate that you stand by yours. Someone in the world has to like stoners I guess. Just not me
I think that Marijuana for medical purposes should have been legalized a long time ago because they way I see it people should be able to get any treatment that benefits them as long as it's within that communities/country's ethical boundaries of course. Recreational Marijuana use I'm more skeptical of, but the way I see I rather see people smoking Marijuana then say crack/cocaine. Anyways, I think it should just be legalized and regularized already.
Comments
However, I would class pot smoking as a lifestyle choice, not merely something people do like watching bad movies or listening to pop music or voting wrong (
No, I counted the vast majority of those several thousand people as colleagues or clients, not as friends.
I like what you said there (above). Pretty much speaks to what I was thinking, as well. Kind of reminds me of the old Christian (?) saying -- "Hate the sin, not the sinner..."
On one hand, I completely understand @RebeccaS 's POV. I do not like associating with drunks; I find them obnoxious, rarely amusing, and for reasons of personal experiences I'd rather not revisit, I get an actual feeling of real physical and emotional unease when around drunk people, (men, especially).
But I don't let that translate, for me, into an intolerance towards every single person who drinks any amount of liquor at all, especially when not even around me.
I can sit in a pub with friends who drink in moderation. They might get a little silly, loosen up a bit more than they usually are... as long as that line is not crossed - the line into real drunkenness - I'm ok with it all.
(Setting aside Buddhism and the precepts for a moment) I might even have a couple of drinks myself if it was a special occasion. I'm not anti-drinking, just anti-drunkenness.
I just think it's a shame and unfair that anyone would find out a simple fact about me personally (I smoke weed) and immediately consider me not worthy of friendship or respect based on that, and that alone.
But what about the other facts: Like -- 1. I could easily pass a drug screen right now at this very minute, because I have not smoked any weed in more than 3 months, even though I have some ....
and 2. that when I do smoke, I do so in my own home and never EVER drive under the influence, and 3. that I smoke now and again for pain and insomnia issues, as well as for recreational reasons. 4. I would also never smoke in front of/around people who did not like it, either.
The idea that none of that is taken into consideration before judging me, and others like me, "pot head losers" or "weird" is pretty harsh and judgmental. Yeah, and it hurts, too.
For example, how many of us here count as true friends some ex-convicts? Former sexual predators? Former wife-beaters?
Or retarded people, or seriously physically handicapped people (e.g., spina bifida or polio), or homeless people, or...
We all draw lines. We all make choices.
Plenty of people like me, plenty of people don't. That's life.
Like Vinlyn said, we all draw the line somewhere, and mine is drawn at pot. It's a personal choice and it works for me.
Some people draw the line at British girls who don't tolerate pot smokers and that works for them
Why not accept people for who they are and judge them only on how they behave towards you, & when they are in your company- and not for what goes on behind their bedroom door or in the privacy of their own home?
You really would opt out of a fun night out with (for example) the people you work with or go to class with because one of them is in a poly relationship and you don't approve of that lifestyle?
You would really not attend a party at a coworker's or boss' house because certain people might be there who do things you don't approve of, like smoke pot or sleep around more than you think is appropriate- even if none of that is going on right there at the party?
I guess I just don't understand those kinds of limitations set up for getting to know people...
Edit: Oops! I had this sitting in drafts for several minutes before I hit the post comment button.... I didn't see the two posts above this one at the time.
The fishing industry comparatively small here, numbered in the hundreds plus shoreworkers and tradespeople/suppliers. And it's is somewhat close knit.
Regardless of which fishery we are in, we have the experience of being at sea in common. And boats/equipment. Lots to talk about.
I think our lifestyle choices represent the condition of our soul, and I really took the "keep holy company" recommendation to heart.
I'll be wrong about some people, because there is no black and white when it comes to life and people, but I will hedge my bets. If only 5% of pot smokers are decent people, saying "no pot smokers in my life" is a good bet.
I will be wrong about some people, and I accept that, but like I said it's a loss I'm prepared to take.
Use of marijuana is so widespread as to be an indicator of nothing. It's a prejudice. Without prior knowledge of a persons drug taking knowledge, I doubt very much that anyone holding that view could neatly separate marijuana smokers from non-marijuana smokers. That's to say that opinions are formed on marijuana smokers not on whether they're good or bad people, but on the simple fact they smoke marijuana, that alone makes them bad - circular reasoning.
If I said that I've never met somebody who drives a car that I like I think I would be, probably quite rightfully, dismissed as being irrational. Personal values are great and we all have them no doubt, but they shouldn't be exempt from questioning or honest discussion I don't think.
And, BTW, surveys in the US show drug use, including marijuana, to be under 9% of the population.
And I suggest you also view
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_cannabis_use_by_country
Even at 9% that would be close to 30 mil. (math is NOT my long suit, but I think that's right! )
Not that I want to argue about the numbers, because in all likelihood, none of the numbers are statistically correct, simply because of the bias and errors in collecting them.
The government wants numbers to lean one way or another, depending on which side they are proving at the moment; pot smokers and those who support the freedom of choice for smoking and/or are against the WOD want them to lean another way, and self reporting surveys are always skewed in either direction for a few reasons.
My point was that if I said I've never met somebody I liked that eats meat or drives a car, I wouldn't be taken very seriously. It might be my personal values that eating meat and driving earth-destroying cars are bad, but to say I've not met a person engaged in such whom I liked would show that I've either not met many people, or I don't much like people altogether.
There's a quote some posts up about sins and sinners which expresses the point.
I mean, stoners voted that the best song ever. Surely that counts towards them not all being bad people
And I understand your other point. And I don't really care if you smoke pot or not. I agree that it's your choice. And it's my choice who I choose to associate with.
It's your choice, and it's my choice.
Umm.... Best song EVER??
Wow, they must have been really stoned!
Not all pot smokers end up to be losers!
I smoked a ton of pot in the college days, I turned out just fine! Of course I don't anymore but anyway.
Anyway I won't argue anymore. I don't want to deny people their views and shout them down or make them feel that that's what I'm doing. Probably both beating a dead horse and repeating our views so I'm happy to leave it there.
Chris
I used to smoke every day when I was young and I was either smoking and stoned or looking to find my next bud to smoke and get stoned. I'm sure I was a pain in the arse and really dull to be around.
Having said that, I don't smoke any more but I have mates who partake maybe once every 3 to 6 months and don't care if they go without. They are lovely people....
I stand by my choice, and I appreciate that you stand by yours. Someone in the world has to like stoners I guess. Just not me