Bombings in gaza. What are your thoughts?

jll

To a casual observer, it seems the palestinians got a raw deal.
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.republicaffair.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/426281_2845745945177_1305268635_32222704_973129999_n.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.republicaffair.com/category/palestinian-zionist-conflict&h=705&w=960&sz=64&tbnid=c3AMNSdEyVOQUM:&tbnh=115&tbnw=157&prev=/search?q=map+of+palestine+2012&tbm=isch&tbo=u&zoom=1&q=map+of+palestine+2012&usg=__28XCvqMFEywCTzrMRxBIegY5bOE=&docid=6v8I0-KmCTEIuM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VU-sUOC6M8XnmAX2nIGwBw&ved=0CCUQ9QEwAQ&dur=12160

vinlyn

I'm 63 years old, and I don't remember any extended time in my life when that part of the world wasn't in flames. Frankly, I think they love war over there. They don't give a shit about the lives of their families or fellow citizens...they just keep it up, over and over and over again. Talk about a Buddhist principle -- they CLING to the hate and violence.

Bunks

vinlyn said:

I'm 63 years old, and I don't remember any extended time in my life when that part of the world wasn't in flames. Frankly, I think they love war over there. They don't give a shit about the lives of their families or fellow citizens...they just keep it up, over and over and over again. Talk about a Buddhist principle -- they CLING to the hate and violence.

There seems to be a cycle of hate and ignorance on both sides that hets passed down from generation to generation.

No disrespect but I think saying that they love war and don't give a shit about their families is a little over the top though.

how

I think perhaps Vinlyn might be saying that they love their hatred more than they love their families.

vinlyn

Yes, perhaps it is a little over the top. And if, over nearly 50 years, I could see any little progress, then I wouldn't say it. But I see no progress, just the same shit over and over and over and over and over. No progress. None. Nada. Zip.

Bunks

You may be right........it's a bloody mess that's for sure!

vinlyn

Quite a few years ago now, I went to the Carter Presidential Library in Atlanta...I like history. Most of the museum was dedicated to the Camp David Accords, which were interesting at the time, but in the long run the region has not advanced to any significant degree. Jimmy Carter bases the reputation of his presidency almost entirely on an event which might have moved the region toward peace...but really didn't.

Niwalen

It baffles me how they can fight over a tiny strip of grey inhospital land, its madness.

Zero

Post world war domination plan in action.
Dig up natural resources.
Sell weapons.
The money game.

I wonder how much will be made from the Iron Dome demonstration...

caz

There's not alot you can do there will be no peace till one or the other is victorious.

BhanteLucky

It's such a hideous situation... I feel so grateful and fortunate that I was born into a first-world country, on an island, at the far end of the world.
This map and this quote, combined, really struck me yesterday.

The incursion and bombardment of Gaza is not about destroying Hamas. It is not about stopping rocket fire into Israel, it is not about achieving peace. The Israeli decision to rain death and destruction on Gaza, to use lethal weapons of the modern battlefield on a largely defenseless civilian population, is the final phase in a decades-long campaign to ethnically-cleanse Palestinians.

Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and naval vessels to bomb densely-crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks, mosques, and slums to attack a population that has no air force, no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanized armor, no command in control, no army, and calls it a war. It is not a war, it is murder.

When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can’t defend yourself when you’re militarily occupying someone else’s land. That’s not defense. Call it what you like, it’s not defense.”

Dr. Noam Chomsky

caz

The end plan is for there to be No Palestine.

Its a war Im glad not to have been born into or involved in. This is the wheel of sharp weapons turning the effects of actions long since pasts are ripening.

May they all be free from suffering.

tmottes

I met a palestinian man by accident in Gallup, NM. After talking for a while in his shop, he invited me and my partner to have dinner with him and his son. He indicated that for hundreds of years, the palestinians and the israelis have had no problems with each other and had lived relatively peacefully together. He alluded to the fact that this recent (last 50 years) increase in violence has been driven mainly by politicians and world leaders. I got the impression that this isn't the fight of the people, but that the people are being used as a means for somebody else's ends.

If you can indoctrinate a generation, it can be sustained through subsequent generations with little effort.

What's that... you are suffering? Well its their fault. *points to a group of people*

And history repeats...

I suspect that if a group of people in the US was treated in the manner than the israeli government treats the palestinians, there would be a lot of outcry.

lamaramadingdong

Speaking of maps, Indian lands pre and post European presence...

vinlyn

tmottes said:

I met a palestinian man by accident in Gallup, NM. After talking for a while in his shop, he invited me and my partner to have dinner with him and his son. He indicated that for hundreds of years, the palestinians and the israelis have had no problems with each other and had lived relatively peacefully together. He alluded to the fact that this recent (last 50 years) increase in violence has been driven mainly by politicians and world leaders. I got the impression that this isn't the fight of the people, but that the people are being used as a means for somebody else's ends.

If you can indoctrinate a generation, it can be sustained through subsequent generations with little effort.

What's that... you are suffering? Well its their fault. *points to a group of people*

And history repeats...

I suspect that if a group of people in the US was treated in the manner than the israeli government treats the palestinians, there would be a lot of outcry.

I've never been in that part of the world, so I can only go by the news reports I have watched over the past 50 years where I see -- on both sides -- everyday people shaking their fists, screaming, etc. To simply blame it on the politicians is too simple. Who elects or supports those politicians?

vinlyn

lamaramadingdong said:

Speaking of maps, Indian lands pre and post European presence...

I thought the thread was about Gaza.

Or shall we discuss all the cases of one group of people taking over the land of another group of people? Shall we go historically or continent by continent? Or shall we just pick on the United States?

how

I find it useful to remember that all of our hands are bloody when wringing them over foreign blood letting. It brings home the need to watch out for my own contributions to living adversarially.

OneLifeForm

It's even more useful to know that there is no sufferer.

Zero

vinlyn said:

I can only go by the news reports I have watched over the past 50 years where I see -- on both sides -- everyday people shaking their fists, screaming, etc.

There are many more sources of information that just news reports - news reports may be quite unreliable - they tend to align better with 'propaganda' than 'news'.

It is correct that jewish and muslim people lived in relative harmony in the region - the current occupiers are not israelis - they are zealot invaders with a political agenda aimed at subjugating the region to control natural resources.

Unfolding before us is the resulting genocide - or is it just people shaking their fists and screaming...?

tmottes

vinlyn said:

tmottes said:

I met a palestinian man by accident in Gallup, NM. After talking for a while in his shop, he invited me and my partner to have dinner with him and his son. He indicated that for hundreds of years, the palestinians and the israelis have had no problems with each other and had lived relatively peacefully together. He alluded to the fact that this recent (last 50 years) increase in violence has been driven mainly by politicians and world leaders. I got the impression that this isn't the fight of the people, but that the people are being used as a means for somebody else's ends.

If you can indoctrinate a generation, it can be sustained through subsequent generations with little effort.

What's that... you are suffering? Well its their fault. *points to a group of people*

And history repeats...

I suspect that if a group of people in the US was treated in the manner than the israeli government treats the palestinians, there would be a lot of outcry.

I've never been in that part of the world, so I can only go by the news reports I have watched over the past 50 years where I see -- on both sides -- everyday people shaking their fists, screaming, etc. To simply blame it on the politicians is too simple. Who elects or supports those politicians?

First, the news isn't going to show harmony: they don't make money from that. Second, it isn't simply that politicians are fighting over all this... its the propaganda, the stories, the anger being incited in the people. In essence, its control of the masses. Just like racism being passed down from one generation to the next, this conflict is being perpetuated through mindless following of the previous generations ideologies and actions. The seeds for these ideologies and actions were not the people living there peacefully, it is the power hungry top.

vinlyn

1. I've seen any number of news pieces over the years about how such groups can and do live in harmony, particularly on a small scale.
2. Of course the news doesn't usually show the harmony because that's not news. And it isn't as simple as saying "they don't make money from that". The average person who picks up the newspaper or watches the news, and has the choice of reading or viewing a segment or story about "Two Men Share Coffee In Gaza" or "Hamas Reigns Rockets Down On Israel", is going to go to the story about the violence...because that is news, while the other is every day life.
3. As we have seen in countless examples throughout the world, the masses can only be controlled -- over time -- if they accept or want to be controlled.
4. Yes, "this conflict is being perpetuated through mindless following of the previous generations ideologies and actions"...in fact that has been my point. But to simply blame it on "the power hungry top" is to oversimplify the situation. Where did those "power hungry top" people come from? Yassir Arafat's father, for example, was a textile merchant. Mahmoud Abbas' family fled their homeland and became poor. All of these leaders were not from rich and powerful families, and I cannot judge whether their families were hungry for power, any more than any leader from a mayor up to a president may be hungry for power.

Some of your points may be accurate. Other points may be cliches. Which is pretty much true of many posts on various topics in any forum...including my own.

karasti

I find it very sad on both sides of the fence. The wife of a good friend of ours is Palestinian and she moved here to be with him 4 or 5 years ago. She is working to bring her family here so they can have a life that doesn't involve air sirens going off and living under a constant state of stress.

I can say, that for me personally, it brings a different meaning to Thanksgiving tomorrow. Some times my family is absolutely nuts, and very difficult to talk to and work with, but at least I have family, and at least I can reasonably expect to finish dinner today, tomorrow, and the next day without missiles landing in my back yard. The US doesn't have it perfect for sure, but when you consider how people around the world spend their every day lives, we really have nothing to complain about.

David

lamaramadingdong said:

Speaking of maps, Indian lands pre and post European presence...

Bingo!

You took the post right from under my fingertips, I was about to go looking for that map.

It's genocide.

David

tmottes said:

I met a palestinian man by accident in Gallup, NM. After talking for a while in his shop, he invited me and my partner to have dinner with him and his son. He indicated that for hundreds of years, the palestinians and the israelis have had no problems with each other and had lived relatively peacefully together. He alluded to the fact that this recent (last 50 years) increase in violence has been driven mainly by politicians and world leaders. I got the impression that this isn't the fight of the people, but that the people are being used as a means for somebody else's ends.

If you can indoctrinate a generation, it can be sustained through subsequent generations with little effort.

What's that... you are suffering? Well its their fault. *points to a group of people*

And history repeats...

I suspect that if a group of people in the US was treated in the manner than the israeli government treats the palestinians, there would be a lot of outcry.

Or at least some casinos.

I'm sorry, did you say "if"?

SattvaPaul

Can someone explain briefly to me or point to some info about why is US so strong in supporting Israel?

vinlyn

I have always thought it was because of the power of the Jewish voting bloc in the U.S. But this article http://wais.stanford.edu/Jews/usjews.htm seems to dispute that.

RebeccaS

Plus there's the whole Hamas issue... The known terrorist group who govern the Gaza Strip. America doesn't want to see terrorists with more land under their feet, and nor do Israel. Or anyone, really.

SattvaPaul

Found this interesting article by Noam Chomsky back from 2010:
The Real Reasons the U.S. Enables Israeli Crimes and Atrocities

Bunks

lamaramadingdong said:

Speaking of maps, Indian lands pre and post European presence...

Change Indian to Aboriginal and the Australian maps look pretty much the same!

maarten

The Israeli government seems completely insensitive to the suffering of Palestine civilians. You cannot excuse bombing someone's house, cutting off medical supplies, cutting off clean water and economic opportunity by claiming that this is needed to stop rocket attacks. In exceptional cases where there is no alternative, an army may go to war against an army, but never against civilians whose history is completely unknown to the soldiers that are killing them. To sacrifice their lives to protect Israeli lives is completely unjustified. What people voted does not make a difference, you cannot justify sacrificing someone's life (whether Jew or Palestine) by saying that they should have voted differently.

maarten

So to answer the original question, it is truly saddening. I think any person is capable of understanding that to drop a bomb on someone's head is an insane thing to do, but for some reason this insanity has become a part of life.

DaltheJigsaw

Sad for the thousands of innocent lives...:(

music

The root of the problem is right-wing politics.

caz

music said:

The root of the problem is right-wing politics.

More like the Abrahamic religions.

hermitwin

can someone explain to me why after WWII, the jews were given palestine and not
a piece of germany since it was the nazis that slaughtered the jews?

vinlyn

I would guess it was because of the homeland issue?

hermitwin

did they expect the the palestinians to just lay out the red carpet? sheeesh.
jews have won many nobel prizes but when it comes to palestine, i guess they are not so smart.

caz

hermitwin said:

can someone explain to me why after WWII, the jews were given palestine and not
a piece of germany since it was the nazis that slaughtered the jews?

Because it was their original homeland that people had repeatedly driven them out of over the centuries ?

Zero

hermitwin said:

can someone explain to me why after WWII, the jews were given palestine and not
a piece of germany since it was the nazis that slaughtered the jews?

I haven't found an express statement from those that decided it - the notion makes little sense.

Taking a stab at it - it is the land of the covenant promised in the bible - at the time the region was under British and American control and there was an established mechanism to reap and control vast natural resources - suppose it didn't harm to insert a proxy state in the region to ensure nationalism did not take a hold.

Germans were the minority in carrying out the civilian slaughter - the majority was done locally by non-germans - reporting jews to the authorities was done locally by non-germans - the nazi government did not invent the hatred and propogate it - it took strength from a preexisting condition.

Germany paid considerable reparations.

hermitwin

if everyone starts reclaiming their ancestral homelands, there will be WW3 n WW4.
can you trace your ancestral homeland of 2000 years ago?

caz said:

hermitwin said:

can someone explain to me why after WWII, the jews were given palestine and not
a piece of germany since it was the nazis that slaughtered the jews?

Because it was their original homeland that people had repeatedly driven them out of over the centuries ?

Zero

I can @hermitwin - the irony is, it is your house... send me your keys in the post or I'll pop over and kick your head into democracy...

You dont have to move out of the entire place - just the house and most of the garden - you can stay right at the end of the garden or pop over to the neighbours if you want, I dont care - but don't use any of the services to my house and for god's sake, when you come and go, dont use the ways I do... make sure you watch me living it up in your house - I will be making the most of it - but dont make a sound or move even or I'll kick your head in - and remember I sell *ss kickings for a living so you'll be a good advert for my service which I do all day anyway - and trust me when I say, my kicking leg is longer, stronger and better versed at kicking your head in... or don't trust me as I'd very much rather demonstrate.

I just love it because it's precisely the type of activity that will send me to a fantastical paradise quite removed from this reality where I may indulge my glorious activities to the end of eternity... it is my birthright.

Now stop moaning and take your kicking or move out... it's your choice and you will be responsible for the outcome whichever way you go... yup you guessed it - more head kicking.

caz

hermitwin said:

if everyone starts reclaiming their ancestral homelands, there will be WW3 n WW4.
can you trace your ancestral homeland of 2000 years ago?

caz said:

hermitwin said:

can someone explain to me why after WWII, the jews were given palestine and not
a piece of germany since it was the nazis that slaughtered the jews?

Because it was their original homeland that people had repeatedly driven them out of over the centuries ?

I have a mixed heritage, Judaic culture and belief is as integral as their race.

karasti

Interestingly, I can trace back to my ancestral homelands, and my extended family still lives in that area and still run a family farm that has been there for a looooong time. But Finland isn't exactly known for getting involved in wars, lol.

BhanteLucky

Well, as of today the ceasefire is holding, the reservist troops have been sent back to their normal jobs, and the leaders seem to be talking rather than bombing. So it's over.
Until the next time.

jll

correct me if i am wrong.
Finns are descended from vikings who used to plunder all of europe.

karasti said:

Interestingly, I can trace back to my ancestral homelands, and my extended family still lives in that area and still run a family farm that has been there for a looooong time. But Finland isn't exactly known for getting involved in wars, lol.

music

Who are the Vikings, and why do they have a bad rep? Is it due to bad publicity or were they really as bad as they say they were?

BhanteLucky

They were really as bad as they say. For hundreds of years, one of their special things was to first plunder, then deliberately rape every woman in every village they came upon. It was a deliberate policy.

seeker242

SattvaPaul said:

Can someone explain briefly to me or point to some info about why is US so strong in supporting Israel?

There is a real good documentary in it. http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/aipac-the-israeli-lobby/

One main reason is because the christian bible says that one should support the Jewish state for religious reasons. One reason is because the re-establishment of the Jewish state and the Jews returning to the holy land is one of the prerequisites for the 2nd coming of Jesus.

music

JamestheGiant said:

They were really as bad as they say. For hundreds of years, one of their special things was to first plunder, then deliberately rape every woman in every village they came upon. It was a deliberate policy.

This is very similar to what christian fundamentalists say about everyone, be they Vikings or incas or whoever. That's why I am tentative.

Jason

jll said:

correct me if i am wrong.
Finns are descended from vikings who used to plunder all of europe.

karasti said:

Interestingly, I can trace back to my ancestral homelands, and my extended family still lives in that area and still run a family farm that has been there for a looooong time. But Finland isn't exactly known for getting involved in wars, lol.

No, not really. The vast majority of the vikings were from Norway, Sweden, and Denmark not, Finland; and the majority of those that travelled to Western Europe were from Norway and Denmark. In addition, they probably weren't quite as terrible as all the stories make them out to be (e.g., check out "Who Were the Vikings?," "How do we know about the Vikings?," and "Vikings: Creators or Destroyers?").

jll

well, i do think the vikings were murderers n rapists.
but that was a long time ago.
if i had to choose a country to live in, it would be in scandinavia.
i truly admire the liberal n progressive society n government.
do you know education is free in sweden?
even if you are not swedish.
now that is what i call an advanced society.

Jason said:

jll said:

correct me if i am wrong.
Finns are descended from vikings who used to plunder all of europe.

karasti said:

Interestingly, I can trace back to my ancestral homelands, and my extended family still lives in that area and still run a family farm that has been there for a looooong time. But Finland isn't exactly known for getting involved in wars, lol.

No, not really. The vast majority of the vikings were from Norway, Sweden, and Denmark not, Finland; and the majority of those that travelled to Western Europe were from Norway and Denmark.