Question on Karma and suffering and "Karmic ribbons"

karasti

Prior to arriving at Buddhism, I read a lot about reincarnation and past lives. My views on it are still changing, but there was something I was thinking about lying in bed last night, and I wonder if there is a Buddhist take on it.

Some Buddhist traditions believe that anything "bad" happening to someone is a result of Karma, current or past life. Let's assume this is true for the sake of this question, lol.

Can these Karmas intertwine between people? Is Karma ONLY due to the Karmic Universe and yourself, or is it due to other people you have done wrong against in the past?

I am asking because, sometimes when someone else suffers, we suffer, too. This is especially true for those who have children, as the bond with someone you created and (in my case as a woman) grew in your body and gave birth to, is pretty immense. They are literally a part of you, and you of them. That's a pretty powerful thing.

In my case, most of you know by now that all 3 of my children experience suffering of some sort. My eldest has Aspergers. My middle child suffers emotional problems, and my youngest is a type 1 diabetic. In different ways, over the course of their lives, they suffer. To a degree, the youngest will experience suffering related to his disease for his whole life. Now, we raise him to not see it that way, but again, for the sake of the question. As their mom, when they suffer, so do I. Not in the same way, but it's still there. No matter how much I understand and grasp the idea that their path is their path, and their karma is their karma, not relating to their suffering as their mom is almost impossible.

SO. As his mom, when he suffers, I suffer. Is it possible these sufferings are connected from past lives we've had together? Is his suffering as a diabetic his, and my suffering as his mom separate? Or are they linked somehow, by past lives and experiences? For example, was he born as a diabetic to me, because I have a karmic debt to pay to him from a past life in having to suffer with him and provide that level of care to him?

I realize in Buddhism that nothing of who we were in past lives carries forward, but if that was true, what would be the need for Karma at all? Bad and good lessons carry forward and they are related to various events in our past lives. So, to me it seems to make sense that we can (but aren't necessarily always) be karmically connected to people because of this. But it is also a belief I've held for a long time and I kind of feel like I'm trying to force it to work with Buddhism when perhaps it doesn't. I guess in a nutshell, if I did something wrong to someone in a past life, is part of Karma working it out with that "person" or just working it out with the Great Karmic Records Keeper and my nonself?

Jeffrey

Your suffering is not mandatory. But your sensitivity is an indestructible quality of your awareness. When you are enlightened you will have sensitivity towards loved ones, but you won't feel suffering. (remember the assumed: I think, I have heard, I have read, etc.)

What you are saying is the foundation of the mahayana vision. We cannot overcome our own suffering without addressing that of other beings.

I guess in a nutshell, if I did something wrong to someone in a past life, is part of Karma working it out with that "person" or just working it out with the Great Karmic Records Keeper and my nonself?

I believe both, though that question may be confused to begin with. But there is something sacred to the heart connections between beings. Again that has to do with the foundation of the mahayana bodhisattva path. (Thus have I heard and understood).

how

Most of the problems with understanding karma and past lives comes from our ego's insistence that we are an entity that is separate from the rest of existence.

For the sake of this explanation, consider yourself and your children as just temporary compilations of countless karmic streams. These streams are the past inertial force of various forms of greed, hate & delusion. Not continuing the feeding of these various forms of greed, hate and delusion, will address their momentum while the development of compassion, love and wisdom will dissipate their continuing wake.
These laws function as primal causes and effects without a lawgiver.
You are just the taxi driver who can intensify, remain neutral or dissipate the karmic journey of these passengers.

Neither greed, hate or delusion...or...
compassion, love or wisdom
ever remain just within the confines of what our egos says we are.
And
There are few folks you will ever meet that also aren't also carrying related stuff to address.

karasti

I really like that explanation, @how.

jll

karma is personal.
that means if i have a child born blind, for simplicity sake,
in my previous life, i make someone's child blind.

as for my blind son, he has his own bad karma, in his previous life, he
made his wife blind in anger.

in other words, i have my own karma n my son has his own karma.
since we are father n son in this life, we would have some previous connections to each other too.

the above is an oversimplified example to illustrate the personal nature of karma.

karasti said:

Prior to arriving at Buddhism, I read a lot about reincarnation and past lives. My views on it are still changing, but there was something I was thinking about lying in bed last night, and I wonder if there is a Buddhist take on it.

Some Buddhist traditions believe that anything "bad" happening to someone is a result of Karma, current or past life. Let's assume this is true for the sake of this question, lol.

Can these Karmas intertwine between people? Is Karma ONLY due to the Karmic Universe and yourself, or is it due to other people you have done wrong against in the past?

I am asking because, sometimes when someone else suffers, we suffer, too. This is especially true for those who have children, as the bond with someone you created and (in my case as a woman) grew in your body and gave birth to, is pretty immense. They are literally a part of you, and you of them. That's a pretty powerful thing.

In my case, most of you know by now that all 3 of my children experience suffering of some sort. My eldest has Aspergers. My middle child suffers emotional problems, and my youngest is a type 1 diabetic. In different ways, over the course of their lives, they suffer. To a degree, the youngest will experience suffering related to his disease for his whole life. Now, we raise him to not see it that way, but again, for the sake of the question. As their mom, when they suffer, so do I. Not in the same way, but it's still there. No matter how much I understand and grasp the idea that their path is their path, and their karma is their karma, not relating to their suffering as their mom is almost impossible.

SO. As his mom, when he suffers, I suffer. Is it possible these sufferings are connected from past lives we've had together? Is his suffering as a diabetic his, and my suffering as his mom separate? Or are they linked somehow, by past lives and experiences? For example, was he born as a diabetic to me, because I have a karmic debt to pay to him from a past life in having to suffer with him and provide that level of care to him?

I realize in Buddhism that nothing of who we were in past lives carries forward, but if that was true, what would be the need for Karma at all? Bad and good lessons carry forward and they are related to various events in our past lives. So, to me it seems to make sense that we can (but aren't necessarily always) be karmically connected to people because of this. But it is also a belief I've held for a long time and I kind of feel like I'm trying to force it to work with Buddhism when perhaps it doesn't. I guess in a nutshell, if I did something wrong to someone in a past life, is part of Karma working it out with that "person" or just working it out with the Great Karmic Records Keeper and my nonself?

driedleaf

You are doing your best to be to the best parent you can be. Sometimes we just need to pat ourselves in the back, and not to worry about knowing the reason why everything is.

karasti

Thanks, @driedleaf Last night anyhow, it was just a thought that crossed my mind and made me wonder. It isn't something I really dwell on, nor do I worry that I, or he, is being punished in some way. In the end, the reason for it doesn't matter, all we can do it life the best we can right now. I have a much easier time understanding, and recognizing and redirecting suffering of my own, but when it involves my kids it's much harder. It's an interesting thing to think about, though.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and taking the time to write them. They all have given me something to consider, so thank you for that!

pegembara

If your past and present kamma don't contain a particular possibility, a corresponding type of becoming[existence] can't be developed. The only becomings[existences] you can experience are those from within the range of possibilities provided by your kamma. Consciousness and craving locate a particular opportunity from those possibilities that, through the nourishment of craving, they develop into an actual state of becoming.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.076.than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.054.than.html

'becoming', 'process of existence', consists of 3 planes:

sensuous existence (kāma-bhava),

fine-material existence (rūpa-bhava),

immaterial existence (arūpa-bhava). Cf. loka.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/bhava.htm

footiam

karasti said:

I am asking because, sometimes when someone else suffers, we suffer, too. This is especially true for those who have children, as the bond with someone you created and (in my case as a woman) grew in your body and gave birth to, is pretty immense. They are literally a part of you, and you of them. That's a pretty powerful thing.

This suffering, if you call it suffering must be due to attachment. As it is, Karma should not be the explanation for everything. Karma sometimes is interpreted as action. Fresh karma can be performed and karma, if you think of it as the effect of the action, probably, can even be diluted just like the taste of salt can be diluted by water, or so I read somewhere.