Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

Is life a zero sum game?

If one observes nature, there is brutality - for one animal to survive, another should die. We observe human societies - it is more or less the same, although we tend to be 'dignified' about our cruelty. In short, this world eliminates individuals and nations that aren't strong, smart, or rich - at least it reduces them to a mere nothingness, dehumanizes them. Nature seems to follow Spencer's law. It doesn't follow our idealism - equality, justice, and the rest.

Is life therefore a zero sum game where one man's loss is another man's gain? Perhaps, it is. Or the Buddha wouldn't have encouraged the path of liberation. He would have praised the world and asked people to enjoy it. None of this should discourage us, though. We must rejoice in our suffering, take it as a hint that a better world awaits us.

Comments

  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited December 2012
    Gain and loss are an endless wheel. You can't have one without the other. A sense of humor is needed.

    Yeah I think the Buddha would have praised the world of the senses if it lead to lasting happiness. But whatever we gain we will eventually lose. Either the thing we have will end or our life ends, one or the other.

    "In short, this world eliminates individuals and nations that aren't strong, smart, or rich"

    Yeah that's a partial insight. I try to not make a big deal over things that aren't important like position and status and find some level where I can meet with people. I have failings such as being schizo-effective disorder, but nobody cares about my success or failure. So I try to meet as a light hearted person who has joy in my dealings and good listening and sharing.
  • Jeffrey said:

    Gain and loss are an endless wheel. You can't have one without the other. A sense of humor is needed.

    And a gun in case things go awry.
    JeffreyBunks
  • Or its a complete illusion shared by us all.

    Then maybe anything is possible, but we're limited to our clinging, which limits our perception and action.

    If one observes anything for enough time, one will find an absence. But its not just absence because there is form, aliveness.

    The non duality of this gives an illusion like nature to reality.

    But in the world of theories we can presuppose anything to justify anything else. The flaw is in the very perception itself.

    But that's the whole point of the path isn't it?

    I think you should see the movie, "Cloud Atlas".

    As I think it adequately describes the expression and question you have.
  • edited December 2012
    @Jason, I am familiar with kropotkin. Also cooperation is seen in animals, insects. Dawkins gives the example of cleaner fish, ants etc. but my point is, cooperation is usually mutual self interest and nothing more. In fact, most virtues like empathy, compassion etc. are based on long term survival instincts. So ultimately everything can be reduced to survival. So our natural instinct will always be surviving at another person's expense ( although logic and evidence may show us that cooperation may be a far better option).
  • CinorjerCinorjer Veteran
    edited December 2012
    music said:

    @Jason, I am familiar with kropotkin. Also cooperation is seen in animals, insects. Dawkins gives the example of cleaner fish, ants etc. but my point is, cooperation is usually mutual self interest and nothing more. In fact, most virtues like empathy, compassion etc. are based on long term survival instincts. So ultimately everything can be reduced to survival. So our natural instinct will always be surviving at another person's expense ( although logic and evidence may show us that cooperation may be a far better option).

    Yes, it's true the universe doesn't dive a damn whether or not you or anyone else suffers. Yes, it's true when you look around at the animal kingdom, the laws of survival of the fittest rule and mutual cooperation is just another temporary strategy for survival. If one being or a thousand beings must suffer so that a stronger or more aggressive group of animals can flourish, including human beings, well then that's the way it is. "Everyone for themselves!" It's nothing personal, just good business. There are plenty of people who believe just this, and more than a few entire societies. The CEO and board of about every huge corporation has this mindset.

    You've just described Samsara. But the universe out there has neither intelligence nor compassion. We humans do, although we often choose to ignore both. That makes all the difference.

    Every religion has at its heart the insistance that we are not just animals operating on blind instinct where survival is everything. Intelligence gives us the ability to make a choice, and that is the fruit of the forbidden tree.

    Intelligence and the choices it brings can result in destruction for everyone or salvation. That choice may be "The heck with survival, I'm taking a gun and blowing away the people I hate and then killing myself." But that ability to choose also lets the stranger step in front of someone about to get shot and sacrifice themselves out of courage and compassion.

    So the world we live in isn't nearly as simple as conflict and cooperation for survival.
    ToshDaftChrisriverflow
  • Life is what you make of it.
    JeffreyDaftChris
  • music said:

    If one observes nature, there is brutality - for one animal to survive, another should die. We observe human societies - it is more or less the same, although we tend to be 'dignified' about our cruelty. In short, this world eliminates individuals and nations that aren't strong, smart, or rich - at least it reduces them to a mere nothingness, dehumanizes them. Nature seems to follow Spencer's law. It doesn't follow our idealism - equality, justice, and the rest.

    Is life therefore a zero sum game where one man's loss is another man's gain? Perhaps, it is. Or the Buddha wouldn't have encouraged the path of liberation. He would have praised the world and asked people to enjoy it. None of this should discourage us, though. We must rejoice in our suffering, take it as a hint that a better world awaits us.

    Life doesn't have to be a zero sum game where one man's loss is another man's gain. There is always a better law than Spencer's. Since we are human, we can always employ a strategy where there is a win-win situation. That's why I suppose we are said to be fortunate to be born human and not animals.
  • It's true, there is always a win win. You just have to be prepared to look for it.

    We're not animals. We come from animals, but we're not. We're not bound by some kind of animal law. We're not ruled by our survival instincts.

    We have a choice about how we live our lives. It's that simple.
  • Consciousness probably came from eating or being eaten. Trees are presumably not conscious. Interestingly I was looking at the branches of a tree and thought it would be cool if the branches would be like neurons in the brain and have telepathic antenna to other trees. Like avatar movie. The branches really look like dendrites in nerves. Dend means branching I think. At least there were 'dendrimers' a class of branching molecules under study by Professor Frechet in chemistry.
  • FlorianFlorian Veteran
    edited March 2013
    music said:

    @Jason, I am familiar with kropotkin. Also cooperation is seen in animals, insects. Dawkins gives the example of cleaner fish, ants etc. but my point is, cooperation is usually mutual self interest and nothing more. In fact, most virtues like empathy, compassion etc. are based on long term survival instincts. So ultimately everything can be reduced to survival. So our natural instinct will always be surviving at another person's expense ( although logic and evidence may show us that cooperation may be a far better option).

    Yes co-operation is mutual self-interest. This is the whole point. Having a shared origin and identity, whatever we do for others we do for ourself. It is inevitable. We may not be aware of this, but we have an intuition that guides our behaviour.

    In the Foundation of Morality, Schopenhauer asks the question: How is it that a human being can so participate in the pain and danger of another that, forgetting his own self-protection, he moves spontaneously to the other’s rescue? How is it that what we think of as the first law of nature - self-protection - is suddenly dissolved and another law asserts itself spontaneously? Schopenhauer answers: this is the breakthrough of a metaphysical truth - that you and other are one, and that separateness is a secondary effect of the way our minds experience the world in the frame of time and space. At the metaphysical level, we are all manifestations of that consciousness and energy which is the consciousness and energy of life. This is Schopenhauer:

    "The experience that dissolves the distinction between the I and the Not I … underlies the mystery of compassion, and stands, in fact, for the reality of which compassion is the prime expression. That experience, therefore, must be the metaphysical ground of ethics and consist simply in this: that one individual should recognise in another, himself in his own true being … Which is the recognition for which the basic formula is the standard Sanskrit expression, ‘Thou art that’, tat tvam asi."

    In John Mathews
    'Joseph Campbell and the Grail Myth'
    in 'At the Table of the Grail',
    Ed. John Mathews



  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    music said:

    If one observes nature, there is brutality - for one animal to survive, another should die.

    What about herbivores?
    :)
  • howhow Veteran Veteran
    All life exists through the death of other life. (including herbivores)
    It is only our ego born semantics that say that life's fluidity is actually cruel
    for the very attachments it threatens.
    Fluidity is the underlying truth of existence, for everything changes.
    It is only a self fuelled dream that (in denial of this truth) says
    that an ending of identity is anything more than change.
Sign In or Register to comment.