Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
Stealing Bad Karma
lobster
Crusty Veteran
Stealing bad karma is an advanced Mahayana practice. It is basically taking on others faults. Here are some examples:
I was staying at a temple of lazy monks. Every day the morning rituals of replenishing the alter offerings were done by the same monk. Why when there was a rota? It was his service to his sangha. Kind . . .
I was at a dharma center the resident boss was throwing her weight around asking people to do things. It came to my turn to do some task, which I clearly was not about to do on her authority. Conflict was likely to erupt. A potential Bodhisattva, rushed forward and volunteered to do the task. Karma stolen. Conflict karma averted . . .
I was at a dharma talk and the head monk was nervous (he was about to run away but that is another story). The talk needed confidence. Luckily some buffoon deliberately rolled off their cushion as if falling off it. This broke the nervousness. Nobody present to their credit, outwardly laughed. Good talk. Did you guess I was the buffoon?
What behaviours have you seen or been engaged in? Try not to be proud of your modesty . . .
http://tinyurl.com/ykv2fp6
I was staying at a temple of lazy monks. Every day the morning rituals of replenishing the alter offerings were done by the same monk. Why when there was a rota? It was his service to his sangha. Kind . . .
I was at a dharma center the resident boss was throwing her weight around asking people to do things. It came to my turn to do some task, which I clearly was not about to do on her authority. Conflict was likely to erupt. A potential Bodhisattva, rushed forward and volunteered to do the task. Karma stolen. Conflict karma averted . . .
I was at a dharma talk and the head monk was nervous (he was about to run away but that is another story). The talk needed confidence. Luckily some buffoon deliberately rolled off their cushion as if falling off it. This broke the nervousness. Nobody present to their credit, outwardly laughed. Good talk. Did you guess I was the buffoon?
What behaviours have you seen or been engaged in? Try not to be proud of your modesty . . .
http://tinyurl.com/ykv2fp6
0
Comments
Karma Vipaka does not relate to the persona...but to the unique never repeated actions that are its cause.
The practice you describe is taking on the BLAME of others not their faults.
It is in any situation to take the blame and then to surrender that blame with the next out breath.
It is done internally and is nothing to do with any strategy for enhancing our belief in a solid self which teaches others..
" Driving All Blames Into One."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malamatiyya
The idea that we can or should " steal another's karma " by which I assume that you mean karma-vipaka..(.you are not I assume meaning that we somehow go back in time and act for them.. ) has no basis in Buddhadharma and is misleading at best.
There is a practice in Lojong mind training of "taking all blame into oneself "..this has nothing to do with modifying someone else's karma- vipaka.
And certainly nothing to do with feeling superior to another, no matter how nervous they are.
We may be emotionally attached to the cup and have an adverse reaction..they does not mean that gravity is bad.
As far as I can ascertain the Sufis have no concept analogous to karma and karma -vipaka at all..
So how they contribute to this discussion eludes me.
To quote Ajahn Sumedho
" We should respect all traditions. but we can only practice one properly "
In Lojong we thwart the efforts of others in their actions.
In effect stealing their negative tendencies away from them:
Examples:
I was walking away from a stupa with some votive candles for the next day. A Tibetan in my path rushed towards me as if I was offering the candles to him as a gift. I was of course happy to give him the candles and was grateful for the opportunity..
Now had I been 'dharma mugged'? Had I been forced into generosity by an astute sangha member?
I was holding open a door for an elderly and arthritic lama, he rushed to the door delighted at my kindness, perhaps causing himself distress. Holding a door for someone is nothing but it had been made into a kindness greater than it was. Perhaps he had revealed or made more of small kindness. Nobody is superior in this action, these things are right to do if you are able.
:clap:
That sounds more like a type of narcissistic personality disorder, and starts with an assumption that we know best what others need. And then stoop down to them for their own good.
But there is little point in my attempting to pour fresh water into a full glass..
I wish you well on your "far more developed " path..
Meanwhile if anyone is interested in the " less developed " cough.. Buddhist concept of " taking all blame " and in seeing it in its Buddhist context then I suggest that they google
" Taking All blame Into Oneself " in Vajrayana Buddhism.
It's like a Christian declaring they will pray for my conversion; very kind of you I'm sure, but please, don't bother....
Sending and Receiving ( Tonglen )
Whereby one receives the negativity of the world on the in breath and breathes out peace and joy.
Driving All Blames Into One.
Whereby one takes all blame into oneself and then dissolves it.
Gratitude To Everyone.
Learning to see that all beings have been one's mother, and that all circumstances are the teacher.
Abandoning All Hope Of Fruition.
One lays down all hope of future attainment for oneself and others and simply abides in what is.
Just as one of the 84 mahasiddhis was a thief initially (the red horned thief).
Exhibiting knowledge, preferences, metta etc is a way of preventing bad karma. Now what is the difference between my karma and yours? Well as this is the advanced section, none. Therefore you must be correct, one can not steal what one owns.
If someone is attached to their suffering? What then? Let them suffer? I think we should steal all the bad karma we can . . . of course I believe sometimes we have to find the jewel in the obstacle . . . so maybe we can place obstacles in peoples path to further their development? Don't like the posibility of that? Not sure how it is done.
Just as one of the 84 mahasiddhis was a thief initially (the red horned thief).
Exhibiting knowledge, preferences, metta etc is a way of preventing bad karma. Now what is the difference between my karma and yours? Well as this is the advanced section, none. Therefore you must be correct, one can not steal what one owns.
I think I'm getting one of
myour headaches....Vipaka is simply the result of action...karma.
Furthermore it is not personal...people do not " have " karma...Karma Vipaka is what shapes the apparent person via the skandhas/kandhas..we could even say that the person IS their Karma-Vipaka..not some Self that owns their Vipaka.
We are not little monads with a core of Karma -Vipaka..that is one of the Vedic ( Hindu ) ideas that the Buddha departed radically from to found a philosophy breathtaking in its radical freshness..
Karma-Vipaka cannot be prevented. Neither our own nor anyone elses. Save by profound Realisation.
Until then all we can do is take responsibility for the results of our own actions.
Lojong is a profound means of taking that responsibility.
It is not a mystical formula or strategy to bypass Karma - Vipaka.
You started the thread with a totally unsound premise..that it is possible /desirable to "steal someone karma " because we know what is best for them..and you have compounded it with a series of non sequiturs and a basic lack of knowledge of Buddhadharma. You have instead substituted a DIY system of your own devising...
But don't take my word for this folks, check it out..prerably with a hands on teacher.
The sheer affrontry of such behaviour! :clap:
You talk of "our" Karma...
We ARE our Karma-Vipaka. You are your Karma-Vipaka..I am my Karma-Vipaka there is no owner..there is no one at home.
The house is demolished..its beams cannot support it..
The green leaf of summer does not become the red leaf of autumn..there is no leaf apart from its form and colour...A leaf or a person is just a linguistic convention to describe a state of flux.
There is no person PLUS their Karma...
That is what anatta means. That is why anicca is a reality..and why dukkha arises in resistance to anatta and anicca.
Let that thought sink in awhile..
She is now a Buddhist teacher btw.
The Buddha did not take prisoners.
When he taught anatta he meant it.
They don't know who invited them to this bird party.
They cannot take away my karma but they can delight me.
You might be able to manipulate someone into doing something, but that's not the same thing.
If someone decides to do something differently, that's up to them. You don't get to take credit for it. It's like an AA sponsor. They aren't keeping the sponsee sober, the sponsee is doing that himself. Just because the sponsor is there for support and guidance doesn't mean he has anything to do with the other guy's sobriety.
The idea just doesn't make sense.
Okay, I want to steal a person’s bad karma.
So I find someone who really hates someone else so much that he wants to kill him.
Now I steal his karma and kill that person before he can do it.
(I hope you all see this is hypothetical.)
Now what is my karma; is it good or is it bad?
I killed (bad). I saved someone (good).
I don’t know the answer to this; but if you got worried relax; I’m not going to kill anyone.
Perhaps the avoiding of our and others suffering is intertwined and entangled. I think it is best to end suffering. Perhaps that is only possible for the individual. Perhaps not. Is it possible to remove peoples tendecies to suffer? Is it possible to steal their attention away from the trivial onto the means to overcome suffering? Are you attempting that? I would say you are . . .
Of course calling this a 'stealing of ignorance' is just a use of language, it is up to you to test its validity . . . What words would you prefer to use
You cant in Buddhist terms test the validity of a proposal that has no basis in any known teaching found in Buddhadharma.
Your very first statement was that " stealing karma is an advanced Mahayana practice "
No it isn't.
It is an idea that shows a basic misunderstanding of karma and karma-vipaka and if you can show any authentic Mahayana source for it I will pay £100 to any registered charity that you nominate.
Perhaps sometimes a clap is designed to create a reaction. Now do you feel you had a hand in this?
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=11052
If so send half the money to a charity of your choice.
If not keep it in good faith
I take from that website discussion the fact that clearly I am not alone in my reaction to your input..
Which I knew anyway from PM's.
The money will be sent to a charity WHEN you can show that " stealing karma is an advanced Mahayana practice "..with textual or at least authoritative backing . Which is what I offered.
Until then I will continue to assume that it simply an idea of your own, and the money will stay firmly in my account.