Violent Art - Is it wrong to study it?

WilliamHobbs

I am obsessed with art, mostly with classical paintings. War, violence, pain etc.., is a commonly recurring theme in such paintings. Is it wrong to study and be so enthralled by them? I only like paintings if they have intensity and if they astonish me, but should I be discouraged?

karasti

Well, technically wouldn't it be wrong to be obsessed or utterly enthralled by any material item?
We all have interests though, and if you aren't harming anyone, and no one was harmed to make the art, I don't think there is a problem with it.

Edited to add: It is good to note what changes things you hear/see etc have on your brain. you might not feel they have an impact, but everything we take into our bodies and mind have the capability to change our cells and even our DNA.

lobster

It is not wrong just indicative.
What do you think is the cause, effect and alternative?

WilliamHobbs

I'm interested in the effect they have on me. If it were a materialistic matter, I would probably be just as interested in the frame.

WilliamHobbs

"What do you think is the cause, effect and alternative?"

The cause would just be a string of events leading up to my first time in a gallery.

The effect would depend on how astonished I am, I find it easy to be taken into another world if I'm looking at an explicit painting; a terrifically beautiful or even ugly have the same effect on me.

As for the alternative, I don't know. There are other things which can astonish me, but art is the only safe and easily accessible way to experience shock. For me, anyway.

Jeffrey

Do the states that arise feel good? Deep down? If it is bad eventually you will feel it.

karasti

shock? What kind of shock? If you want shock, you can find plenty of it on the internet, lol.

WilliamHobbs

Jeffrey said:

Do the states that arise feel good? Deep down? If it is bad eventually you will feel it.

They are neutral. It's just the experience once you have left the gallery that I like; I feel as if I have changed for the better, more understanding and peaceful. Which is rather strange for a violent painting.

karasti

I should add, I enjoy scary movies. I don't know why. Some of them actually scare me and I turn on the lights and watch Golden Girls to lighten the mood before I can sleep. Can't explain it, but I do enjoy them. Spent the past couple evenings watching Rose Red and it still makes me jump, lol. I think in a sense because I was always a fearful kid and early adult, that scary movies helped me face some fears and know I would live through them.

WilliamHobbs

karasti said:

shock? What kind of shock? If you want shock, you can find plenty of it on the internet, lol.

Shocked by the immense beauty which can still be witnessed, even when there is violence.

Niwalen

I'm an artist and spend hours looking at art on sites such as deviantart. I do this to gather techniques to improve my own art.

I do believe to some degree that everything you ever see or hear is filed in your subconcious memory and can in the long term affect your behaviour/mental balance.

I had a friend as a child who was obsessed with images and disgusting paintings from gore websites and used to pour over photographs of car accident corpses.

I heard he later ended up almost killing someone and left them quite badly mutilated. so i'm not sure but thats what I believe.

I also enjoy striking art, but I would lay off the nasty ones because I think it does effect you eventually xx

andyrobyn

Having an emotional reaction to any kind of situation, event, stimuli or whatever is a normal human response ... it makes me wonder how much someone who does not respond to external stimuli ( like art, music or natural phenomona such as a waterfall) is aware of their feelings and if they have the ability to recognise and respond to them appropriately.

WilliamHobbs

By violent art, I mean something like this:


The violent art I enjoy is not just gore, it's usually classical and painted in a classical way. It has to surrounded by beauty at the same time. It isn't the violence I like, just the peace after witnessing it. The contrast has an effect on me.

WilliamHobbs

I'd still prefer something extremely peaceful and calm any day:

Niwalen

My apologies I assumed you meant really violent lol. No what you have shown is 'Judith Beheading Holofernes' by Caravaggio in 1599.

This is an old master lol, if this is what you enjoy then I don't personally see the problem xx

maarten

Maybe it is a practice in equanimity for you? Perhaps you observe the violence and let it go, without holding on to it?

footiam

WilliamHobbs said:

I am obsessed with art, mostly with classical paintings. War, violence, pain etc.., is a commonly recurring theme in such paintings. Is it wrong to study and be so enthralled by them? I only like paintings if they have intensity and if they astonish me, but should I be discouraged?

I know some people here discouraged violent movies. They say they encourage violence. If paintings have the same effect, most probably, it should be discouraged too.

Citta

It depends on our priorities...if our priorities are in seeing the roots of dukkha in order to stop its arising, then we will gravitate towards that which aids calmness and compassion in our particular case.

Citta

Of course what orientates one person to calm and compassion may be different for another person...To take a musical comparison The music of Bartok is greatly calming to me...but not everyone experiences it the same way.

zombiegirl

@WilliamHobbs I instantly thought of nearly the same painting you posted except instead of Caravaggio, I was thinking of Artemesia Gentileschi's take on it, which I think is much more passionate and interesting:

Personally, I think Caravaggio made Judith too timid. Gentileschi would have been no stranger to a strong and bold woman defying the norms of the time and I appreciate the strength she injected into Judith.

From the same theme:


Sorry, I guess I don't have any practical advice on your question because I seem to be in the same boat... lol. I don't seek out violent art specifically, but I will say that as far as these paintings are concerned, they certainly are successful in creating shock and awe. I think what's most important is to examine the feelings they create in you. Do they make you angry? Want to destroy things? Want to hurt people? Or are they just shocking and interesting?

WilliamHobbs

They make me sit and think. I have no desire to hurt people or destroy objects. Violent paintings help me to realise the contrast between my situation and those of others.

Lee82

An interesting topic and one I have sort of considered myself in the past. Someone above said how the effect of viewing violent material may influence behaviour in later life but I don't agree with that theory.

Playing violent video games doesn't cause kids to go out shooting others. Parents letting kids watch adult films (not the sexual kind) doesn't turn the kids in to the people they see on the screen. Those people that commit terrible acts were likely to have done so in any case, it's built in to who they are. We all have the ability to choose right from wrong, to do or not to do, it's a matter of our character and our values which in turn is dictated very much by our childhood.

There are few things that will shock me these days as I have been somewhat desensitised by the things I have seen, or chosen to view, in my lifetime. I don't feel that anything I look at would influence the sort of person that I am, my values don't change and therefore there is no harm in viewing anything of a violent or dark nature. It is not reality, not my reality anyway. If you are able to view something objectively and see it for what it is, a painting is a painting, then no harm can result.

maarten

A difference between a violent movie/video game and a violent painting is that in the former you tend to identify with the person who is doing to violence. In that case it could work like an inverted metta-practice (i.e. a practice of developing hateful feelings), and be harmful.

RebeccaS

Bloody hell. I wouldn't be hanging it above the fireplace

tmottes

Sometimes I think about torture, serial killings, etc. I find that I have no interest in harming others in anyway, but find it completely fascinating that other can seemingly take such pleasure in these activities. It also helps me to understand my capacity as a human. Just as some would say... if the buddha can achieve nirvana, so can I. Thoughts like these, while I don't seek them out, when they arise can be used skillfully to remind myself that the road in the other direction is just as achievable. Keeps me on task

Beej

i would only add that television news also often functions in this manner: explecit violence is often highlighted in quite graphic ways. i often wonder why people watch it, because it offers very little in the way of information you can actually use, but i am starting to think that people watch it for the same reasons that someone likes violent art. something about the emotion that it evokes gets you off, so to speak. this is facsinsting in that pornography also has a similar effect. is there a pleasure receptor in the brain that governs both of these types of desires of closely links them? sex and violence?

BhikkhuJayasara

WilliamHobbs said:

I am obsessed with art, mostly with classical paintings. War, violence, pain etc.., is a commonly recurring theme in such paintings. Is it wrong to study and be so enthralled by them? I only like paintings if they have intensity and if they astonish me, but should I be discouraged?

I'd move away from worry as to whether something is "wrong" or not. Try to loosen your feelings of judgement and guilt " ooh this is naughty art should I be looking at it?" hehe. observe your feelings when observing the art, does observing said art help you and others in a skillful way? if so, then fine, if not, then move to abandon it. trust your gut.

and remember, there is no such thing as guilt in Buddhism

vinlyn

Violent art...hmmm...are you interested in it, or obsessed by it?

kgrey

Whatever violence you perceive through such imagery is not contained on the dead canvas of the painting, but is an expression of the artist's mind now reflected in your own (and a chance for you to see through this distinction/limitation of personal/individual thought).

That said, isn't the judgement required to label this or that 'wrong' also a (perhaps more subtle if such distinctions matter) form of violence? Doesn't asking others for their judgements on this serve to allow you to continue to externalize this?

If certain imagery is compelling, it is a clearer pointer than anyone else can offer. What it points to, you must see for yourself. Your reactions are your teachers, compelling you to see more than the superficial imagery. Just as the artist was compelled to express something through those images.

Morality is either personal compulsion or social coercion. To accept others views is neither intrinsically right nor wrong, but rather a form of blindness for the sake of convenience/conformity.

Let the push and pull of such feelings lead you to realization of their source/nature. Then this will no longer be a matter of complex decisions and distinctions, but one of simple/direct/obvious discernment.

Either that or you're just weird. Who but the self-deluded aren't?

Cole_

Observing is not wrong. Part of studying art is studying and appreciating old masters, many of whom were religious painters, which entails its fair share of doom and gloom. I don't know if seeking out violent paintings is of any practical benefit, but if you're studying to become an artist, step one is studying other's work.