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The mind of a socio-pathic

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Comments

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Exact quote: "88 in 100 americans own gun".
  • RebeccaS said:

    @Robot people are issued carry licenses in Canada under certain circumstances. Mostly people in the sticks who might come across bears etc.

    Yea, you're right. Trappers and such. Just don't get caught on the street in Toronto or Vancouver with one.
    Tosh
  • They may have military rifles in Switzerland, but they're not allowed to have the ammunition for the thing; in which case it reduces the weapon to a mere club.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    @vinlyn fine, I misstated what I intended to state but it doesn't change the impact. It doesn't change the fact that our small % of the world population owns a huge % of the guns on the planet, and is also home to the highest amount of gun deaths. Also, if you feel the need to correct someone, you don't need to be a condescending jerk about it.
  • cazcaz Veteran United Kingdom Veteran
    An Uncivilised person finds more sophisticated ways of killing people. Civilised societies should not permit firearm ownership, These things are made for death and destruction.
  • karasti said:


    I agree, and I think really we are on the same page. Gun law isn't the only answer, but it needs to be part of it and we can do far better than we do now. People running around with guns with minimal or no training is most certainly not making us safer.

    It will be interesting to see what President Obama does this time. With the movie shooting he was facing reelection. So he mostly kept his mouth shut politically. Will he do the same this time... we will see. He doesn't have as much to lose now.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Well he can't institute laws on his own. Nancy Pelosi has already expressed her intent to put a gun law up at the start of the year that she has been working on for a couple years now, with regards to the ease of obtaining such weapons, clips, etc.
  • LostLight said:

    Therefor, my take on live and let live changes when I consider someone flawed to the core.

    I'm not sure I would like to believe that people can be flawed to the core. I've done some bad things myself and I changed. My A.A. sponsor has done some terrible stuff to women (a long time ago) but is 22 years sober, a Christian, and is more 'Buddhist' than many Buddhists I know. This man's whole life is motivated by love and compassion for others; he's an inspiration to me.

    I know many others like him, a guy who killed a cyclist when he was drunk driving, a gangster type who spent many years in jail, and more; all of whom live a life of service to others.

    I think people due to ignorance (in the Buddhist sense of the word) can do terrible things, but I also believe that they are not 'flawed to the core' and there is innate goodness in all of us. Remove the ignorance and you'll find a lovely person underneath.


    ZenshinDavidyagr
  • BuddhadragonBuddhadragon Ehipassiko & Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran

    @Tosh said:
    They may have military rifles in Switzerland, but they're not allowed to have the ammunition for the thing; in which case it reduces the weapon to a mere club.

    I know this is an old thread, but I noticed this comment.
    @Tosh, my husband did the military service every year since he was twenty till his mid-thirties.

    He did keep both the guns and the ammunition at home, but you had to keep the guns unloaded.
    Whenever possible, you had to store both separately.

    Some people keep the guns loaded, though, but apparently, it is not allowed.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2015

    Love this video. I recommend you watch it through....

    (And @DhammaDragon...? Reviving a thread?! Tsk tsk... we shall have words....!)

    Buddhadragon
  • BuddhadragonBuddhadragon Ehipassiko & Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran

    ^^^No, Fede! It wasn't me!!
    It was @thug4lyfe...!!!

  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    @Cinorjer said:
    This terrible massacre has nothing to do with the death penalty: these people expect to be killed or even kill themselves before they're through. A martyred death is part of their script. And nobody even close to sane can understand what sort of rage and obsession with imagined revenge causes a killer to lash out at the world and shoot a roomful of children or strangers in a mall or movie theatre. Of course the man was insane. That's all the "why" we need to know.

    If we can't protect the children of the world against senseless violence, we can cry along with their parents and families and community.

    We all know (but conveniently forget sometimes) that we can decry regular citizens owning guns, but we don't come up with an appropriate, reasonable, truly compassionate alternative as far as the aftermath and most importantly prevention. Guns are not the real problem here.

  • There is a story in Buddhism about a Tibetan monk who did not stand down to a Chinese general. He stood before him, and the general asked if the monk knew who he was, and said that he could run his blade through the monk without blinking an eye. The monk responded: "Do you know who I am? I could have that blade run through me and die before you without blinking an eye." This is unconditional love - to allow others to do as their karma dictates without judgement. Try to view the tragic events through this lens. In the story, who is suffering more? The monk or the general? The general, naturally. The monk will not even feel the pain of the blade and will have done something brave. Can you view the school shootings the same way?

  • KennethKenneth Veteran

    @upinthecurrent said:
    Can you view the school shootings the same way?

    No I can't, because the victims were not monks. They were terrified children and adults.

    silver
  • The concept is the same, and to endorse the death penalty is to perpetuate the pain and suffering that the killer brought into the world.

    Yes, those killed were children. I saw someone else mention that these events can be explained by Karma... not in the respect that these individuals deserved to die, but in the respect that perhaps this was their purpose for incarnating here? Could it not have been part of their work on this planet, to die in this way? The killer needed to do this in order to awake. He was suffering too much as a human being. He suffered so much that his suffering flowed out of him and created death. However, if you kill in this life, you will not be reborn as a human being... or at least, this is what my teacher has told me. He has told me that if you kill, or bring pain to others, you will probably be reborn as an animal or into one of the lower realms. This is because your Karma will need many more lifetimes to be worked through.

    Those killed were innocent and selfless. It was their Karma (not that they deserved it, but that on a soul level they agreed to it) to free this being from suffering in his human life by being the object of his anger and hate. Now, he will go back to simpler lives and hopefully by the time he incarnates as a human again he will not suffer so much. This is the way I see it.

    Namaste

  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    I guess it's one thing to believe in karma, and it's another to imagine that we can explain everybody's 'karma' as if it were some sort of a balance sheet that anybody can 'see' or understand. I honestly don't know just how much or how often the Buddha talked of karma and what it means, but he also said each of us has to decide what makes sense of what we see and hear, and what doesn't. I'd prefer to have answers and reasonable (right) actions and attitudes to improve a given situation.

    yagr
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    Not everything comes down to Karma. Sometimes s*%t just happens to people. The children and other victims of this and other crimes did not have the ability to consider things the way the monk in the story did. They were violently ripped from their families. The shooter chose a way out of his suffering, unfortunately he took others with him and in the wake of his actions, left families, a community, a state, a country with much suffering.

    Honestly, the idea that everything, good or bad, that ever happens is a result of karma in that way isn't much different than the Christian idea of original sin and baptism. "If it happens, in some sense, you deserve it and must have agreed to it, and now you are cleansed." I don't buy it. It doesn't make logical sense so I don't accept it.

    silverKennethRowan1980Hamsaka
  • KennethKenneth Veteran

    @upinthecurrent, I'm not endorsing the death penalty, for the record I'm a long time opponent of it, and it saddens me that my county still practices it. As for the rest, I'm coming to Buddhism from a secular place and I cannot accept that all of these children were brought together along with their teachers to die in order to release the killer's suffering. For me this is very close to the Christian, "Its all part of God's plan" that is often heard when Christians try to cope with tragedy.

    Even so, I am very new to Buddhism and have much to learn and understand.

    Namaste to you too and welcome to the forum!

    silver
  • edited May 2015

    There is truth in Christianity, just as there is truth in all religions! That said, if this idea doesn't work for you, let's drop it. One of the core teachings of Buddhism is that we are all one. If you go deeply enough into meditation, you can feel this. If you look at anything for long enough, you will begin to see that it is the same as the mind that observes it. It is all a play of form, which rests upon the fundamental truth of emptiness. This emptiness is misunderstood if it is understood as absence... rather, this emptiness contains within it all life, all possibilities, all scenarios, all variables, all outcomes. Would you say that this is true?

    If you would, then can you see that the killer and those killed are one in the same? The pain he inflicted was inflicted upon himself, because the life he took was ultimately the same life that flows through and animates him. Can you see the amount of suffering he must have been in to be in such a state of delusion? Can you try to have compassion and understand that he is not of right mind?

    This does not mean that we excuse his actions. This does not mean that we do not mourn the children lost and feel immense sorrow for their families. This only means that we must try to feel compassion for all beings, even (and especially) for those who are not capable of feeling compassion themselves.

    (Thank you for the warm welcome! :) )

    howDavid
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator

    It's a discussion forum, so we discuss things. Therefore, there are opinions and thoughts that don't match yours and there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean we have to stop discussing it though. Of course I can see his suffering and have compassion for him as a result. Never said I couldn't :) I just don't really agree with the comparison of the children killed and the story of the monk.

  • federicafederica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
    edited May 2015

    @DhammaDragon said:
    ^^^No, Fede! It wasn't me!!
    It was thug4lyfe...!!!

    So some moron throws himself off a cliff, you gonna follow him to see how it feels...?

    Huh??

    HUH - ?! :rage:

    :lol:

    Buddhadragon
  • BunksBunks Australia Veteran
    edited May 2015

    @karasti said:
    Not everything comes down to Karma. Sometimes s*%t just happens to people. The children and other victims of this and other crimes did not have the ability to consider things the way the monk in the story did. They were violently ripped from their families. The shooter chose a way out of his suffering, unfortunately he took others with him and in the wake of his actions, left families, a community, a state, a country with much suffering.

    Honestly, the idea that everything, good or bad, that ever happens is a result of karma in that way isn't much different than the Christian idea of original sin and baptism. "If it happens, in some sense, you deserve it and must have agreed to it, and now you are cleansed." I don't buy it. It doesn't make logical sense so I don't accept it.

    I think if one accepts that rebirth is real and that our mind stream has been around since "beginingless time" it is easier to accept that everything that happens to us is a result of karma.

    There have been a couple of instances where English celebs (an actor and a football manager if I'm not wrong) have come out and stated that "so and so" deserved what they got because of something they must have done in a previous life.

    I'm not condoning what they said but I find it perfectly acceptable as I'm a Buddhist.

    However, I also understand your typical Christian or Athiest would think they were nuts!

    The media had a field day of course........

    upinthecurrent
  • silversilver In the beginning there was nothing, and then it exploded. USA, Left coast. Veteran

    I think the Buddha would say everyone carries their theories a little too far at times. I truly believe he wants us to perform skillfully as we can, whether the theory of rebirth and reincarnation is true or not. And stay in the present.

    yagrKenneth
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    edited May 2015

    I just (personally) don't think it's meant to be taken so literally all the time. If someone stabs me tomorrow, does that mean I have to have wronged them in another life? I don't think so. It just doesn't seem to me that karma works "quid pro quo," so to speak. I accept that it is possible, yes, even though sometimes that is difficult. I can accept that perhaps one of my children suffers now for something they did in a past life. I don't completely reject that idea. But I don't think ALL of it is a result of karma in such a literal sense. Does my son have diabetes because he did something wrong in a past life? Maybe he did. Or perhaps it was just a perfect storm of incorrect nutrition on my part when I was pregnant with him. Or perhaps it was just his body went haywire when he had a virus. Who knows. But it doesn't seem to me it has to always be karmically related. I mean, to be carrying on with life and then "BAM! some unseen force strikes you with diabetes (or whatever) because you did something 450 years ago." It just doesn't make sense to me. But who knows who my view changes over time.

    However, if you look at, say, my son's diabetes as "karma" of poor nutrition (lack of vitamin D in my case) or a virus, then of course it makes sense. If karma is seen solely as a consequence in that way, then sure, diabetes is a consequence of a body's failure to correctly respond to a virus, or whatever. But it doesn't make sense to me that the only answer is that he has diabetes because he did something wrong in another life. Perhaps he did. Or perhaps he did not.

    The bottom line for me is, either way, we just don't know. If someone murders my child in his classroom, do I have compassion for the suffering of the murderer? I hope so. I don't know if I could or not. But I hope I would, at least at some point. But does that mean I automatically chalk up his bad choices to karma he needed to reap or karma my child needed to sow? I don't think so. Possible. But not guaranteed.

    silveryagrRowan1980Kenneth
  • yagryagr Veteran

    I have not read all the responses, but found this post I wrote back in 2010 that I thought I would share here.

    Through the static I was able to make out a word, sometimes two. With two hundred miles behind me and another five hundred in front, I was in no hurry; I decided to let the radio dial linger there until it became clear that I was moving toward the tower or away. My tolerance for static lasted about twenty miles but as I reached for the dial I heard someone ask, “So what are your thoughts on the death penalty?” I had found a listener driven, late night radio program and considered calling information for their number and giving them a call to share my thoughts. The mountains I was traveling over wouldn’t permit a complete thought before dropping my call though and so I drove on listening, when the static allowed, to the varied opinions while considering my own. Mine went something like this: My wife and I have two wonderful daughters and two beautiful granddaughters who we couldn’t be more proud of and grateful for. They are the reason that I am against the death penalty. To five-year-old Brooke and three-year-old Savannah, Grandma b’Chelle is the center of the universe; I am slightly less so but then, you know how grandmas can dote. Us men, even grandpas, are at a serious disadvantage. The fourteen hundred mile round trip that I am on right now – the one that I make every week, it is to see my wife who is serving her twenty-second year of a life sentence. Yes, it was murder. Aggravated murder. No, she is not innocent and the victim most certainly didn’t deserve to die. But if you kill my wife, you kill our daughter’s mother, you kill Brooke and Savannah’s Grandma b’Chelle and their suffering would be just as real and just as great as the loved ones of the poor innocent who died at my wife’s hands twenty-two years ago. Anyone who takes a life and in doing so brings unbearable pain and suffering onto the family and loved ones of the murdered person deserves to be punished; that includes our government.

    silverRowan1980KennethJeffrey
  • yagryagr Veteran

    Oh heck, I found one more post in the same place when I found that last one and so:

    Give me three months and I can turn anyone into a killer. Give me six and I can turn them into a bona fide sociopath. In my time in the military I watch as naive, young men were turned into trained soldiers in weeks, soldiers prepared to kill strangers upon an order. I watched some go on to more advanced training and just be ready to kill, with or without orders. As early as the forties we had military projects in conjunction with the CIA in which we ‘broke’ people and put them back the way we wanted. While we experimented mostly on our own, we would often use captured enemy soldiers, breaking them, fracturing their personality and molding and manipulating a piece to kill their own when they were returned, completely unaware of their own intentions once released. In one example, using drugs, torture and other trauma upon both volunteers and unaware subjects, we induced what was then referred to as Multiple Personality Disorder (now Dissociative Identity Disorder) so that one alter could kill and the other personalities wouldn’t know anything about it. (reference MKULTRA/MKSEARCH subproject 51) Experts were brought in from the fields of criminal and child psychology and gave their expertise on what childhood trauma’s could best facilitate the fracturing of the psyche and personality. Our government knows better than anyone that killers are created not born. They have studied mental health patients and death row inmates to duplicate such life events in a laboratory. They’ve succeeded; they know. Please believe me, I will not do this, but I often wondered… would the eyes of a governor or members of a parole board be opened if their child was borrowed for six months and returned a sociopath? Might they then see that we are all the same and that it was only chance and circumstance that made them the governor and this person a killer? Probably not. They would probably be too consumed with grief over the fate of their loved one; they would be us.

    BunksRowan1980KennethJeffrey
  • yagryagr Veteran
    edited May 2015

    @karasti said: But it doesn't seem to me it *has* to always be karmically related. I mean, to be carrying on with life and then "BAM! some unseen force strikes you with diabetes (or whatever) **because you did something 450 years ago**." It just doesn't make sense to me. But who knows who my view changes over time.

    I like to consider that time is not linear and so I may/will have done something IN 450 years and then "BAM!".

    But also, could it not be a blessing? I mean, BAM! some unforeseen force struck me with this disease I've got. Good news? Bad news? Who can say?

    Rowan1980
  • KennethKenneth Veteran

    Wonderful haiku, @Silver. For some reason this popped into my head:

    Well, God is in His heaven
    And we all want what's His
    But power and greed and corruptible seed
    Seem to be all that there is

    Bob Dylan from "Bind Willie McTell"

    Zenni
  • BuddhadragonBuddhadragon Ehipassiko & Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran

    @karasti said:
    Not everything comes down to Karma. Sometimes s*%t just happens to people.
    [...]
    Honestly, the idea that everything, good or bad, that ever happens is a result of karma in that way isn't much different than the Christian idea of original sin and baptism. "If it happens, in some sense, you deserve it and must have agreed to it, and now you are cleansed." I don't buy it. It doesn't make logical sense so I don't accept it.

    We can't attempt to explain everything by Karma or DO.
    "This is because that is..."

    Yeah, okay, but the causes that concur to bring about effects are so complex that it's probably not even worth going there at all.
    We'll waste much precious present moments that could be put to better work basking in them rather than overpondering an issue which, in the end, won't shed any convincing answers.

    I agree: s#%t happens. It's part of the deal. It comes in the package.
    It's dukkha. We probably did not willingly sign up for it but, mate, it is in the small-letter clause.

    We discussed this before, and I always more or less said that asking WHY is the wrong question.
    The right question is: "Since it happens and it's staring at me right in the eye, WHAT AM I TO DO ABOUT IT?"

    ZenshinkarastiRowan1980
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