Vaccinations: discuss.

Xrayman

There has been a lot of misinformation regarding links or otherwise towards autism etc. between vaccination versus not vaccinating.

I am a staunch supporter of this field of medicine. If we look at one particular type of illness that was almost eradicated in children by vaccination, Whooping Coughwe would see that as soon as vaccination against this disease was introduced, right up to the early '90's there was a drastic decrease i the incidence of the disease. NOW,we have some people who believe that we should not vaccinate. period. The latest data shows that now Whooping Cough is on the rise (in non-vaccinated children).

So, faced with the evidence for disease prevention or eradication i.e. smallpox. should we abandon vaccinations?

Australian scientists have just finished trials of a vaccination against the HPV (Human Pappiloma Virus-genital wart virus). YES, a Viral vaccination! There is a definite link between a particular strain of this virus and cervical cancer/abnormal cellular growth of cells in the cervix. There was a trail completed that showed 100% effectiveness a first in the world for this issue.

it is proposed that all girls and Boys about 12-13 will be vaccinated against this virulent (potentially deadly) form of cancer by 2010-agree or disagree?

regards,
Xrayman

DharmaKitten

Generally speaking, I'm all for vaccines. For me, it's a numbers game. The risks of vaccines are typically so much less than the risks of getting the diseases.

zenmonk_genryu

As above.

buddhafoot

"The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few." -- Spock

-bf

Simonthepilgrim

buddhafoot wrote:

"The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few." -- Spock

-bf

Despite "Spock"being my earliest screen-name, I reject this as a geb=neral principle of behaviour.

Nevertheless, I am generally in favour of vaccination. It is through vaccination that we have managed almost to eradicate smallpox, which killed thousan ds every year. This is, indeed, the only diseease that we hasve managed to eliminate across the world - and in a single generation.

buddhafoot

It was somewhat "tongue in cheek", Simon.

I can't think of a life decision I've made, during my life, on what has come out of Star Trek

-bf

not1not2

I'm not going to debate this too much as there is a lot of evidence supporting both sides of the vaccination issue. Howver, there is, in fact, a link between Thermosol (a mercury based preservative) and Autism. The CDC has suppressed its own studies which support this link. And there are thermosol based vaccines still being used today.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/07/01/autism_mercury_and_politics/?p1=MEWell_Pos4

In a 1991 memo, Dr. Maurice Hilleman, one of the fathers of Merck's vaccination programs, warned his bosses that 6-month-old children administered the shots on schedule would suffer mercury exposures 87 times the government safety standards. He recommended that Thimerosal be discontinued and complained that the US Food and Drug Administration, which has a notoriously close relationship with the pharmaceutical industry, could not be counted on to take appropriate action as its European counterparts had. Merck ignored Hilleman's warning, and for eight years government officials added seven more shots for children containing Thimerosal.

Mercury is a known brain poison, and autism rates began rising dramatically in children who were administered the new vaccine regimens. A decade ago the American Academy of Pediatrics estimated the autism rate among American children to be 1 in 2,500. Today, the CDC places the rate at 1 in 166, or 1 in 80 boys. Additionally, one in six children is now diagnosed with a related neurological disorder.

In 2000, the CDC met with pharmaceutical companies and the FDA in secret to review its findings linking Thimerosal with the dramatic rise in neurological illnesses. According to transcripts, participants were alarmed about the undeniable links between the Thimerosal and widespread brain damage in children. Dr. Bill Weil told the group, ''You can play with [the results] all you want. They are statistically significant." Dr. Richard Johnston admitted he feared his grandchild getting a Thimerosal-containing vaccine. But the group was most concerned with keeping the findings secret. ''Consider this embargoed information," said Dr. Roger Bernier, a senior director at the National Immunization Program, at the meeting's close. The CDC now says it has ''lost" the data that supported the crucial study and has persistently defied congressional requests and federal law requiring it to open up the federal Vaccine Safety Database to scientists and the public.

...

Drug makers wary of liability reduced Thimerosal in most children's vaccines in recent years, but the preservative remains in flu shots, tetanus boosters, and over-the-counter drugs. Mercury-laced vaccine stocks were given to American children until the end of 2003.

At least that last part is good news, but make sure you ask if there is thermosol in the vaccines you give your children. Especially considering the amount of vaccinations doled out these days.

Anyway, we decided not to vaccinate our kids, but we made a very informed decision on the matter. I would at least urge people to consider delayed vaccinations. The early years of life are critical developmental stages & I think that we should not have so many vaccinations, at least not for infants/toddlers. I think the fact that my step-daughter had seizures after her immunizations has weighed in heavily for me. Beyond that, I'm not outright against vaccinations for certain things, but I do think there may well be some unseen consequences in our prolific usage of them.

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metta

not1not2

Also, here is an article against vaccinations, though I'm sure there have been rebuttals to it. Nonetheless, I think the other side of this debate should be represented.

http://www.mercola.com/2001/aug/18/vaccine_myths.htm

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metta

Simonthepilgrim

Thank you for that, not1not2. I agree that all sides of the debate need to be presented.

Where I think we need to make a distinction is between the question of vaccination and that of vaccines. The example of smallpox suggests that campaigns of mass vaccination, with some degree of compulsion, has a startling effect. The problem arises with other vaccines.

Once again, we are at the mercy of 'experts'. As you say, n1n2, the important thing is that we educate ourselves in order to be able to make informed decisions.

Simonthepilgrim

buddhafoot wrote:

It was somewhat "tongue in cheek", Simon.

I can't think of a life decision I've made, during my life, on what has come out of Star Trek

-bf

You mean you don't refer to the Big Book of Star Trek before every decision? Thr Roddenberry Way? I understand that there actually exist 'trekkie' sects - probably better than most scriptures!

Seriously tho', the Spock quote does present us with an interesting question which bears on vaccination or fluoride in the water or torture!

not1not2

Seriously tho', the Spock quote does present us with an interesting question which bears on vaccination or fluoride in the water or torture!

Don't get me started on flouride in the water, lol.

In regards to the vaccination debate, it would require an extensive research in the statistics to get any thing of an accurate picture. Both sides have a tendency to leave out conflicting statistics and occassionally draw the wrong conclusions/correlations from them. And I can say that while we can still debate the effectiveness of the vaccines, that the pro-vaccination side has taken some undue credit for the fall of certain diseases.

from the last link I posted:

According to the British Association for the Advancement of Science, childhood diseases decreased 90% between 1850 and 1940, paralleling improved sanitation and hygienic practices, well before mandatory vaccination programs.

The Medical Sentinel recently reported, "from 1911 to 1935, the four leading causes of childhood deaths from infectious diseases in the US were diphtheria, pertussis, scarlet fever, and measles. However, by 1945 the combined death rates from these causes had declined by 95 percent, before the implementation of mass immunization programs."

Thus, at best, vaccinations can only be examined only for their relationship to the small, remaining portion of disease declines that occurred after their introduction. Yet even this role is questionable, as pre-vaccine rates of disease mortality decline remained virtually the same after vaccines were introduced.

Furthermore, European countries that refused immunization for small pox and polio saw the epidemics end along with those countries that mandated it; vaccines were clearly not the sole determining factor. In fact, both small pox and polio immunization campaigns were followed by significant disease incidence increases.

After smallpox vaccination was being mandated, smallpox remained a prevalent disease with some substantial increases, while other infectious diseases simultaneously continued their declines in the absence of vaccines.

In England and Wales, smallpox disease and vaccination rates eventually declined simultaneously over a period of several decades between the 1870's and the beginning of World War II.

It is thus impossible to say whether or not vaccinations contributed to the continuing declines in disease death rates, or if the declines continued unabated simply due to the same forces which likely brought about the initial declines-improvements in sanitation, hygiene and diet; better housing, transportation and infrastructure; better food preservation techniques and technology; and natural disease cycles.

Strong argument, but I really wish this guy would provide footnotes though. You've gotta research the research if you want to know the real scoop. The lack of notation means that we must simply trust the author. This is problematic in determining what is actually going on and what is his own spin. Both sides are guilty in this regard, with some exceptions.

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metta

not1not2

And this:

Another component of immunization theory is "herd immunity," the notion that when enough people in a community are immunized, all are protected. As Myth #2 showed, there are many documented instances showing just the opposite -- fully vaccinated populations have experienced epidemics.

With measles, this actually seems to be the direct result of high vaccination rates.

In Minnesota, a state epidemiologist concluded that the Hib vaccine increases the risk of illness when a study revealed that vaccinated children were five times more likely to contract meningitis than unvaccinated children.

Surprisingly, vaccination has never actually been clinically proven to be effective in preventing disease, for the simple reason that no researcher has directly exposed test subjects to diseases (nor may they ethically do so).

The medical community's gold standard, the double blind, placebo-controlled study, has not been used to compare vaccinated and unvaccinated people, and so the practice remains unscientifically proven.

Furthermore, it is important to recognize that not everyone exposed to a disease develops symptoms (indeed, only a tiny percentage of a population need develop symptoms for an epidemic to be declared).

Thus, if a vaccinated individual is exposed to a disease and doesn't get sick, it is impossible to know whether the vaccine worked, because there is no way to know if that person would have developed symptoms if he or she had not been vaccinated. It is also worth noting that outbreaks in recent years have recorded more disease cases in vaccinated children than in unvaccinated children.

not1not2

One more:

The documented long term adverse effects of vaccines include chronic immunological and neurological disorders such as autism, hyperactivity, attention deficit disorders, dyslexia, allergies, cancer, and other conditions, many of which barely existed before mass vaccination programs.

Vaccine ingredients include known toxicants and carcinogens such as thimersol (a mercury derivative), aluminum phosphate, formaldehyde (for which the Poisons Information Centre in Australia claims there is no acceptable safe amount that can be injected into a living human body), and phenoxyethanol (commonly known as antifreeze).

Some of these ingredients are gastrointestinal toxicants, liver toxicants, respiratory toxicants, neurotoxicants, cardiovascular and blood toxicants, reproductive toxicants, and developmental toxicants, to name a few of the known dangers. Chemical ranking systems rate many vaccine ingredients among the most hazardous substances, and they are heavily regulated.

Even microscopic doses of some of these ingredients are known to be able to cause serious injury. In addition, some vaccine mediums used in the production of vaccines contain human diploid cells originating from human aborted fetal tissue, a fact that might affect many people's vaccination choices-if they only knew this was the case.

Medical historian, researcher and author Harris Coulter, Ph.D. explained that his extensive research revealed childhood immunization to be "causing a low-grade encephalitis in infants on a much wider scale than public health authorities were willing to admit, about 15-20% of all children."

He points out that the sequelae [conditions known to result from a disease] of encephalitis [inflammation of the brain, a documented adverse effect of vaccination]: autism, learning disabilities, minimal and not-so-minimal brain damage, seizures, epilepsy, sleeping and eating disorders, sexual disorders, asthma, crib death, diabetes, obesity, and impulsive violence are precisely the disorders which afflict contemporary society.

Many of these conditions were formerly relatively rare, but they have become more common as childhood vaccination programs have expanded. Coulter also points out that pertussis toxoid is used to induce encephalitis in lab animals. The pertussis vaccine's ability to cause brain damage is thus not only known, but relied upon by clinical researchers studying brain disorders.

A German study found correlations between vaccinations and 22 neurological conditions including attention deficit and epilepsy. Another dilemma is that viral elements in vaccines may persist and mutate in the human body for years, with unknown consequences.

Millions of children are partaking in an enormous, crude experiment; and no sincere, organized effort is being made by the medical community to track the negative side effects or to determine the long-term consequences. Since long-term studies on the adverse effects of vaccines are virtually non-existent, their widespread use in the absence of informed consent and adequate safety testing constitutes medical experimentation.

As the American Association of Physicians and Surgeons and the National Vaccine Information Center have pointed out, this is a violation of the first principle of the Nuremberg Code, "the centerpiece of modern bioethics."

Bart Classen, MD, PhD, founder of Classen Immunotherapies and developer of vaccine technologies, conducted epidemiological studies around the world and found vaccines to be the cause of 79% of insulin type I diabetes in children under 10.

The increase risk ranged from 9% with the diphtheria vaccine to 50% with the Hepatitis B vaccine. According to Classen, CDC data confirms his findings.

However, the implications of Classen's findings go well beyond diabetes, as his comment in a 1999 issue of the British Medical Journal points out: "The incidence of many other chronic immunological diseases, including asthma, allergies, and immune mediated cancers, has risen rapidly and may also be linked to immunisation." The diabetes findings may be only the tip of the iceberg.

Recent studies in the U.S. and England suggest that vaccines cause autism. Mercury poisoning and autism have nearly identical symptoms, and a single day's vaccination regimen may inject 41 times the level of mercury known to cause harm.

California's autism rate has mushroomed 1000% over the past 20 years, with dramatic increases following the introduction of the MMR vaccine in the early 1980's. England had dramatic autism increases beginning in the 1990's, following the introduction of the MMR vaccine there.

Some infants receive 100 times the EPA's maximum allowable amount of mercury through vaccines. In January, 2000, the Journal of Adverse Drug Reactions reported that the MMR vaccine was not adequately tested and should not have been licensed. Further reinforcing the suspected vaccine-autism connection is the fact that many physicians using a systematic mercury-detoxification regimen with autistic patients have seen dramatic improvements in the health and behavior of their patients.

There is much more in this article, but I will try to refrain from posting more, at least until there is some response. I don't want to overwhelm this topic.

_/\_
metta

not1not2

If we look at one particular type of illness that was almost eradicated in children by vaccination, Whooping Coughwe would see that as soon as vaccination against this disease was introduced, right up to the early '90's there was a drastic decrease i the incidence of the disease. NOW,we have some people who believe that we should not vaccinate. period. The latest data shows that now Whooping Cough is on the rise (in non-vaccinated children).

Could you provide your source for this info? Regardless, a quick response:

Most childhood infectious diseases have few serious consequences in today's modern world. Even conservative CDC statistics for pertussis during 1992-94 indicate a 99.8% recovery rate.

An alternative link to this article (there's an annoying subscription pop-up on the first link):
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/vaccines_phillips_myths.htm

_/\_
metta

YogaMama

One of my favorite subjects. It's not so much the vaccinations that I am against, it's what they put IN the vaccinaitons to preserve them. That stuff is scary.

Airmech

I dont post very often but thought I must pop into this thread.

I have an autistic brother of an age which puts him into the catagory of one the first groups of kids vaccinated with the MMR jab. Despite this in general i am still in favour of vaccination and think that we face a worse problem in the UK with anti-biotics being handed out at will but i digress.

Its weird having an autistic brother, people ask me 'dont you ever wonder what he would have been like had he not been autistic?'. The thing is, ive never thought of him as being majorly different although I do worry about how he will cope in the future.

Simonthepilgrim

Airmech wrote:

......................
I have an autistic brother .........................

Its weird having an autistic brother, people ask me 'dont you ever wonder what he would have been like had he not been autistic?'. The thing is, ive never thought of him as being majorly different although I do worry about how he will cope in the future.

Did you listen to Starty The Week on Radio 4, this week? There was a fascinating chap called Kamran Nazeer.

KAMRAN NAZEER was diagnosed as autistic as a young boy and sent to a special needs school, yet today shows little sign of the condition and has been working as a policy adviser and speech writer in the Civil Service. Send in the Idiots, published by Bloomsbury, documents the lives of his school friends, but it was on the subsequent book tour of the US that Kamran realised there was a lot more to be said and understood about autism. He will discuss autism with Michael Blastland as part of the Autism Unveiled event in the Highland Park Spiegel Tent at the Edinburgh Book Festival on Monday 21 August at 7.30pm.

You can download the podcast at:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/starttheweek.shtml

Xrayman

not1not2 wrote:

Could you provide your source for this info? Regardless, a quick response:


An alternative link to this article (there's an annoying subscription pop-up on the first link):
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/vaccines_phillips_myths.htm

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metta

try this-its not perfect, but holds the 90% statistic that I was referring to.
http://www.eurosurveillance.org/em/v04n12/0412-222.asp

It appears that perhaps we are discussing two conflicting situations.

Firstly I was using the Whooping cough as an example, Pertussis as you correctly pointed out. Then you made the statement (statistic) that said 99.8% of pertussis is overcome by children-right?
I'm not sure what you mean as I was talking about the effectiveness of vaccination versus incidences of infection, by this disease. I think that we are concerned about getting the disease and the horrible symtoms associated with it-not if the child will survive the attack-aren't we?

You seem to be alluding to the MMR (measles, mumps and rubella vaccine), which is a chemical cocktail or viral particulates as well as preservatives and toxins-I agree with your views on this. The Autism linkis not due to the MMR particulates (apparently) by the rest of the fluid-I believe. if in fact the source is correct-hell yea i don't want to inject mercuric compounds into my child either.

A small diversion, in MRI we use gadolinium which is a rare-earth metal, it's incredibly toxic in its usual state-however the molecule is bound into a special molecular format that makes it incredibly safe to inject-ARE YOU SURE THAT THE MERCURY IN THE MMR IS NOT TREATED IN THE SAME WAY?

cheers, thanks for the information -I appreciated the clarification you provided in your posts-thanks again

XRAYMAN.

not1not2

the 99.8% thing was simply stating that pertussis is not that dangerous, and combined with some of the potential adverse reactions to the preservatives, thermosol or otherwise, it makes it questionable as to which is worse.

And in regards to thermosol, as the Robert F. Kennedy Jr. article stated, since 2003 there has been a great reduction in the use of this preservative. Still it is floating around and it is important to ask. And there is still "aluminum phosphate, formaldehyde (for which the Poisons Information Centre in Australia claims there is no acceptable safe amount that can be injected into a living human body), and phenoxyethanol (commonly known as antifreeze)."

I really am not trying to be contentious and I am very glad you did not take it that way. Glad to have a reasonable discussion here as this particular debate can get heated in some circles.

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metta

Xrayman

Yea cool. I agree. Like I said I wanted some great discussion on the subject and I think we got that.

Nice points of view!

cheers

inthedharma

I agree with the use of vaccines to a point. But I totally agree with, be informed. Research, Research, Research and then Research it again. In the U.S. they are still using Mercury even tho they say they are not. Just a couple of months ago a friend's daughter who is very informed took her son to the doc. for his vaccinations and asked what was in them. They told her they were very safe no worries. She asked to look at the literature which the nurse would not give her. She finally had to refuse the vaccinations until the doc. came in and asked her what was going on. They then let her read the literature and there was Mercury in them etc..... She then refused and told them they would have to order different vaccine or she would go else where.
As for MMR's I believe there have been enough studies to prove it can cause Autism and ADHD. One of the leading researchers from the UK came and gave a talk on it a couple of years ago. He believes that if we don't give the MMR at 12 months and wait untill the child is older 2-3 years or even 5 years and then give it as 3 seperate shots at 3 different times that we will see much less problems. I'm not sure about now but up until a year ago. There was only 1 physician in the state of Missouri that had the vaccines separately. No one in the town I live in would even consider ordering it that way. They say it is not cost affective. Hmmmmmmm our childrens welfare is not cost affective?? I have a serious probem with that.
I also have issues with the Chicken Pox vaccine. I don't feel that we have done enough research to know the long term effects. We do not know how long the vaccine is even good for. Will we have a whole generation that will end up getting chicken pox as adults? There are a lot more complications with adults having chicken pox than children. Are we going to have men who are sterile because they got the chicken pox as adults?
I had a licensed Day Care for 11 years. I closed it when the Chicken Pox vaccination became mandatory. It was just the final straw for me.
When our goverment is willing to use unsafe ingredients in their vaccinations because it is more cost effective than the safe ones. I think we have a very serious problem.
I could go on and on but.....I'll stop

not1not2

inthedharma wrote:

I agree with the use of vaccines to a point. But I totally agree with, be informed. Research, Research, Research and then Research it again. In the U.S. they are still using Mercury even tho they say they are not. Just a couple of months ago a friend's daughter who is very informed took her son to the doc. for his vaccinations and asked what was in them. They told her they were very safe no worries. She asked to look at the literature which the nurse would not give her. She finally had to refuse the vaccinations until the doc. came in and asked her what was going on. They then let her read the literature and there was Mercury in them etc..... She then refused and told them they would have to order different vaccine or she would go else where.
As for MMR's I believe there have been enough studies to prove it can cause Autism and ADHD. One of the leading researchers from the UK came and gave a talk on it a couple of years ago. He believes that if we don't give the MMR at 12 months and wait untill the child is older 2-3 years or even 5 years and then give it as 3 seperate shots at 3 different times that we will see much less problems. I'm not sure about now but up until a year ago. There was only 1 physician in the state of Missouri that had the vaccines separately. No one in the town I live in would even consider ordering it that way. They say it is not cost affective. Hmmmmmmm our childrens welfare is not cost affective?? I have a serious probem with that.
I also have issues with the Chicken Pox vaccine. I don't feel that we have done enough research to know the long term effects. We do not know how long the vaccine is even good for. Will we have a whole generation that will end up getting chicken pox as adults? There are a lot more complications with adults having chicken pox than children. Are we going to have men who are sterile because they got the chicken pox as adults?
I had a licensed Day Care for 11 years. I closed it when the Chicken Pox vaccination became mandatory. It was just the final straw for me.
When our goverment is willing to use unsafe ingredients in their vaccinations because it is more cost effective than the safe ones. I think we have a very serious problem.
I could go on and on but.....I'll stop

Hey, do you live in Missouri? I live in Jefferson City & am moving to Columbia next week. It is hard to find a pediatrician who won't harass you for not vacc'ing. Fortunately, we've found one.

_/\_
metta

inthedharma

not1not2,
Yes, I live in Cape Girardeau. 2 hours south of St. Louis....about 4 hours from Columbia........Columbia is a great town. Many years ago we use to spend a lot of time in Columbia.....I would way rather live in Columbia than here.............I went to highschool in the Kirksville area.

Pediatricians here have threaten to turn parents over to social services if they don't do vaccinations. They have told parents that I did day care for that if they have to call social services their children will be taken away from them for neglect.

not1not2

inthedharma wrote:

not1not2,
Yes, I live in Cape Girardeau. 2 hours south of St. Louis....about 4 hours from Columbia........Columbia is a great town. Many years ago we use to spend a lot of time in Columbia.....I would way rather live in Columbia than here.............I went to highschool in the Kirsville area.

Cool. I lived in Kirksville for awhile during my college years. It's a nice place to walk around in at night during the summer. I have some really good memories from there.

Pediatricians here have threaten to turn parents over to social services if they don't do vaccinations. They have told parents that I did day care for that if they have to call social services their children will be taken away from them for neglect.

I've heard the same. Honestly, this is not an abuse/neglect issue. It could be argued the same for the other way around, especially if you have seizure disorder history in your family.

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metta

Adiana

not1not2 wrote:

Cool. I lived in Kirksville for awhile during my college years. It's a nice place to walk around in at night during the summer. I have some really good memories from there.



I've heard the same. Honestly, this is not an abuse/neglect issue. It could be argued the same for the other way around, especially if you have seizure disorder history in your family.

_/\_
metta

All of my kids have had their vaccinations with no problems and they are healthy. I do know that in Anderson, Indiana where I live, all children must have had all their shots or be on a course of receiving shots on a timely basis to even be accepted into school and/or daycare facilities locally. The only exception given is if it is in a child's medical records that the child cannot receive certain vaccination(s). This document has to be signed by the child's doctor and it is a part of the child's permanent record. I have also heard arguments both pro and con, which is why it is important to be informed.

Adiana:type:

Sabine

I think the benefits probably outweigh the negatives, but they can be dangerous without proper research. My mom said I had a seizure as a baby when they gave me my first hepatitis vaccine. So I guess just administer carefully?

not1not2

The problem is that pediatricians don't really let you pick and choose which vaccinations you want. It's pretty much all or nothing. Sure, the Hep B vaccine is still optional, along with Chicken Pox, but their is still a push to make them mandatory & I'm sure that most people just get every vaccination the doctor's suggest. Personally, I don't understand the
Chicken Pox vaccine, as it really isn't dangerous in childhood. And unless the mother is Hepatitis Positive, then I don't really see any point in that one either. Considering that Hep B is not contagious & is generally spread through sharing needles & unprotected sex, then I don't think I really have to worry too much about my newborn contracting the disease. And the flu vaccine has been the incorrect strain the past two years in a row. I really don't know whether it is effective at all anyway. Not to mention that some of the batches were expired. There needs to be some tighter control on this sort of thing.

The big thing for me is that an infant will receive the same amount of the vaccine as a 5 year old would and the pharmaceutidal companies are not strictly regulated on how much actually goes into each dose. In other words, some doses are significantly larger than what they should be, as there is no real regulation of this. That means that a 2 month old may receive a very large dose for their body weight and become very ill. Once again, I really think there needs to be tighter control on this industry.

Another side issue, that may or may not mean a whole lot to people, is that some vaccines are cultured from aborted fetal tissue. Now, this is a moral grey area for me, but seeing as I don't really support vaccinations too much, I don't have to worry about this one.

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metta

inthedharma

Not1Not2,

Are you sure that the Hep B and the Chicken Pox vaccine are not mandatory in Missouri? We are both in Missouri and it is mandatory here because I got into a big argument with the State inspector of my day care to whether children in my day care should be vaccinated for Chicken Pox.

You are probably more up on it than I am. Been out of day care for a few years now. Just interesting that different areas of the same state have different rules.

not1not2

Well, they didn't require it (the Hep at the hospital. And we have basically have a religious/philosphical exemption, so we don't vax at all. So, maybe it's just the hospital Hep B shot that isn't mandatory. Beyond that, I'm not really sure about the other scheduled Hep B vaccine & I at least know that chicken pox is one of the scheduled vax's. Anyway, gotta go.

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metta

not1not2

not1not2's wife here.

I think that they are all required now. I just won't let anyone near my babies with a needle without knowing what is in the vial, and why it is given.

inthedharma

I think that is a very wise decision.