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Monks/Nuns and Supernatural Abilities *cue erie music*
I said nothing at all about "dirtiness," "impurity "or "misdeeds". Each of those terms have been introduced into the discussion by you. I am quite happy to agree with Jason's description of supranormal powers as byproducts..a byproduct by definition not being the point of the exercise. But please feel free to disagree 1000%..but lets be clear what we are disagreeing 1000% about. NB Jason also said that he is "agnostic " about the existence of such powers.
No, they weren't introduced by me-- they were implied by you.
I give up on these Buddhist forums. I thought this one would be different. But all it is, once again, is more "holier-than-thou" attitudes hiding behind doctrine.
It's a distraction for those who hear of such abilities and for those who possess those abilities.
You know this as fact, then?
Nope, like all things it depends on conditions.
But the general frame and view of those who follow the Hinayana path or to be more specific the path of ordination will agree.
In the Vajrayana there are Mahasiddhis. These lay practitioners are basically outcasts from their traditions and follow the inner tradition. You can hear many stories of them moving their hands through rocks and overall integrating fully with the elements. Their supernatural expressions have no limits and they have no vows which prevent them and limit them from expressing them. For these individuals liberation and spreading liberation through their lives is the point.
It's a distraction for those who hear of such abilities and for those who possess those abilities.
You know this as fact, then?
You wont find many experienced practitioners who hold a different view to that, Tara. Often they have learned the hard way.. Now people are attracted the Dharma for many different reasons, some because of loss and pain, some through the beauty of its iconography, and some because they are fascinated by phenomena.. If you stick with it you might find your own motives changing. its been known.
As far as help goes, the way I've understood is that if you are enabling someone to continue unskillful behavior, then you are not helping them even if you feel you are. I read in a book that at a retreat everyone was supposed to wash their own dishes. Yet often they did not, so the guy in the story washed their dishes, and was chastised by a nun because he was not helping them, he was encouraging them to continue to be irresponsible for themselves. That made sense to me, but sometimes it's not easy to know which it is, especially if it's a random, at-the-moment thing and you just jump in to help. Hard to know, but I try not to think about it too hard and just do what seems right, though I try to evaluate my intentions before I make the choice.
I'm still confused on why, if monks (and seemingly) lay people find they have specific powers, they are to toss them aside if Buddha did not. I read a few things on accesstoinsight last night, and there are plenty of things in various suttas there, and in other things I have read that many people witnessed Buddha doing various "miracles" of the mind, just as Jesus did. If he said they were to be disposed of, why did he allow people to see him perform them?
Any special powers that the Buddha may have had were simply the spontaneous fruit of his awakening...he most certainly did not cultivate them, and he advised his followers not to attempt to cultivate them . In those days there were many teachers who were described as having all sorts of powers, and the Buddha was ruthless in his critique of their understanding.
I don't think they take a vow. To the contrary, in traditional societies, they're sought out for their divination abilities. Some gain a reputation for being quite good at it.
are you talking about Buddhist monks? or people with powers in general?
It wouldn't surprise me at all but that is certainly "wrong livelihood " if monastics -
Wrong livelihood for contemplatives ... reading marks on the limbs [e.g., palmistry]; reading omens and signs; interpreting celestial events [falling stars, comets]; interpreting dreams; reading marks on the body [e.g., phrenology]; reading marks on cloth gnawed by mice; offering fire oblations, oblations from a ladle, oblations of husks, rice powder, rice grains, ghee, and oil; offering oblations from the mouth; offering blood-sacrifices; making predictions based on the fingertips; geomancy; laying demons in a cemetery; placing spells on spirits; reciting house-protection charms; snake charming, poison-lore, scorpion-lore, rat-lore, bird-lore, crow-lore; fortune-telling based on visions; giving protective charms; interpreting the calls of birds and animals ... [The list goes on and on]
— DN 2
lol! Of course the Buddha taught that monks shouldn't be soothsayers, and so forth, but that's never stopped them. One of the Buddhist texts found in the caves at Dunhuang was "A Monk's Book of Spells". But technically, it's not wrong livelihood if they offer their services for free, which they do, as far as I've heard and observed. It's like when people go to their clergyperson for counseling. The priest doesn't charge for marriage counseling or family counseling. http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/11066/a-monks-book-of-spells-found-at-dunhuang
@Citta, In the mahayana the motive for siddhis is to use them to help other beings.
Thats the positive motive Jeffrey..it doesnt stop every Vajrayana teacher I have known strongly discouraging their deliberate cultivation. Actually there can be a useful dimension here...at the initial stages a glimpse of such processes can convince that there is more to the world than the material .
@RainbowTara the path is narrow, it starts wide, as we progress we become wider but in a sense also more focussed, so it becomes more narrow. I feel there is nothing unhealthy in an interest in seeing psychic monastics from where you feel you are . . . However as your compadres, we also rely on your evolution to aid our progress . . . and that does not happen by magic . . . it happens by you being holier than thou . . . looking forward to that . . .
@RainbowTara Thanks for sharing your experience. I can't speak for others here, but I don't doubt your honesty or that's what you remember. I don't think anyone in the postings did so, either. Nor are you alone in believing that some people are capable of supernatural feats, especially the more spiritually advanced. In fact, most Buddhists in the world probably hold similar beliefs.
But the standard response, straight out of the Sutras, is that focusing on these beliefs is to be avoided, because it's only a distraction. The Dharma is not supposed to teach you to float in the air or read minds. Neither one of these abilities, even if they really existed, will eliminate suffering. More than that, it's a corruption. It opens the Sangha to con artists and we have enough of a problem with people worshipping our leaders without throwing in magical abilities.
And it only leads to anger. If I suggest to you that I sincerely doubt anything supernatural happened, that monks did not float in the air and other monks didn't really see the future or read your mind, you get angry. It shows and it's natural. You feel that I'm suggesting either you got fooled, or you're not telling the truth. But I don't doubt your honesty or intelligence. Cold reading by people with supposed psychic powers is an old trick, and what you describe is exactly what everyone describes. In every case where there is a recording to examine by magicians who know the mind tricks, it turns out the memory of what happened is false. Every case. Our minds play tricks on us.
No, I don't believe our monks and nuns have ever discovered the ability to float in the air, or read minds, or any such thing. But I don't expect them to, and if they ever proved an ability like that, it would be of interest to the scientists, not me. Our need to discover magic in the world is definitely of interest to psychologists who continue to be amazed by the human mind.
So then my ex asked a question about their family's business. The monk went into an almost trance-like state and started to describe the building/store EXACTLY. He had never been in there before. He told us what the business was, where everything was located/placed-- he has no idea about any of this before he sat down with us.
Let's see, what else? Ummm, as for future predictions, he was spot on about them, too. One of the things he said was that my brother would be married in 4 years and he was right about that. He also saw that my ex and I wouldn't stay together. I mean, that stuff is hit or miss, I'm sure you could argue that's not really predicting the future since it's a 50/50 thing, but there was so much other stuff he said that I don't want to get into that was specific and accurate about personal matters. It was really freaky and really started to convert my nihilistic thinking.
Let's see... another time was around winter 2009. My friend, who was Vietnamese, took me to see this (I guess "retired") Buddhist nun. She used to be one but now she was living with her family and a grandmother, so I'm assuming she left in order to have a family.
Anyway, she scared me the most. She literally read my mind as well. Before she started to read for us, she meditated for a good 10-15 minutes, so that tells ya right there she wasn't playing around... .
Anyway, back to the mind reading bit-- she even said before we started, "Think of the question in your head-- you don't have to say anything, and I will answer your questions." I tried to think of the most foul thing I could think of to test her out at first. She put her hand over her mouth as she blushed and giggled uncomfortably. I won't say what it was, but, yeah, she could read my mind.
It's great when stuff like this happens, because it teaches us to let go of preconceptions, to let go of our tight grip on a limiting view of reality.
I met a woman in Siberia who described my house perfectly, both inside and out. Later, I took a class in exploring different psychic abilities, and I found myself doing the same for one of the people in the workshop, when we broke up in pairs to practice. It just goes to show what you can do when you still the mind and tune in. I've also found myself picking up on other people's thoughts occasionally. If they're Westerners, they freak out. If they're Asians or from any other culture that doesn't have the rigid, "scientific" worldview the West does, they're unphased.
There have been scientific studies where psi abilities of various sorts have been tested under controlled conditions, with results that are significantly higher than chance. So I don't really think there's anything "woo woo" about this stuff. I think these are skills that get neglected in our culture. We're taught that it's unscientific, flaky, to believe that mind-reading and predicting the future are possible. And there are enough charlatans out there, that it reinforces the image that these abilities aren't "real".
It could also be that in SE Asian culture, there was a pre-Buddhist tradition of healers or clairvoyants that got incorporated into Buddhism. Those gifts are often hereditary, so they wouldn't just go away because a new religion took over. Buddhism sometimes deliberately incorporated shamanic traditions, as a way of spreading the Dharma, a way of making the Dharma acceptable to populations that resisted it. Thanks for sharing.
Comments
I give up on these Buddhist forums. I thought this one would be different. But all it is, once again, is more "holier-than-thou" attitudes hiding behind doctrine.
But the general frame and view of those who follow the Hinayana path or to be more specific the path of ordination will agree.
In the Vajrayana there are Mahasiddhis. These lay practitioners are basically outcasts from their traditions and follow the inner tradition. You can hear many stories of them moving their hands through rocks and overall integrating fully with the elements. Their supernatural expressions have no limits and they have no vows which prevent them and limit them from expressing them. For these individuals liberation and spreading liberation through their lives is the point.
Buddhism is diverse in expression and function.
Often they have learned the hard way..
Now people are attracted the Dharma for many different reasons, some because of loss and pain, some through the beauty of its iconography, and some because they are fascinated by phenomena..
If you stick with it you might find your own motives changing. its been known.
I'm still confused on why, if monks (and seemingly) lay people find they have specific powers, they are to toss them aside if Buddha did not. I read a few things on accesstoinsight last night, and there are plenty of things in various suttas there, and in other things I have read that many people witnessed Buddha doing various "miracles" of the mind, just as Jesus did. If he said they were to be disposed of, why did he allow people to see him perform them?
http://newbuddhist.com/discussion/11066/a-monks-book-of-spells-found-at-dunhuang
Actually there can be a useful dimension here...at the initial stages a glimpse of such processes can convince that there is more to the world than the material .
I feel there is nothing unhealthy in an interest in seeing psychic monastics from where you feel you are . . .
However as your compadres, we also rely on your evolution to aid our progress . . . and that does not happen by magic . . . it happens by you being holier than thou . . . looking forward to that . . .
But the standard response, straight out of the Sutras, is that focusing on these beliefs is to be avoided, because it's only a distraction. The Dharma is not supposed to teach you to float in the air or read minds. Neither one of these abilities, even if they really existed, will eliminate suffering. More than that, it's a corruption. It opens the Sangha to con artists and we have enough of a problem with people worshipping our leaders without throwing in magical abilities.
And it only leads to anger. If I suggest to you that I sincerely doubt anything supernatural happened, that monks did not float in the air and other monks didn't really see the future or read your mind, you get angry. It shows and it's natural. You feel that I'm suggesting either you got fooled, or you're not telling the truth. But I don't doubt your honesty or intelligence. Cold reading by people with supposed psychic powers is an old trick, and what you describe is exactly what everyone describes. In every case where there is a recording to examine by magicians who know the mind tricks, it turns out the memory of what happened is false. Every case. Our minds play tricks on us.
No, I don't believe our monks and nuns have ever discovered the ability to float in the air, or read minds, or any such thing. But I don't expect them to, and if they ever proved an ability like that, it would be of interest to the scientists, not me. Our need to discover magic in the world is definitely of interest to psychologists who continue to be amazed by the human mind.
I met a woman in Siberia who described my house perfectly, both inside and out. Later, I took a class in exploring different psychic abilities, and I found myself doing the same for one of the people in the workshop, when we broke up in pairs to practice. It just goes to show what you can do when you still the mind and tune in. I've also found myself picking up on other people's thoughts occasionally. If they're Westerners, they freak out. If they're Asians or from any other culture that doesn't have the rigid, "scientific" worldview the West does, they're unphased.
There have been scientific studies where psi abilities of various sorts have been tested under controlled conditions, with results that are significantly higher than chance. So I don't really think there's anything "woo woo" about this stuff. I think these are skills that get neglected in our culture. We're taught that it's unscientific, flaky, to believe that mind-reading and predicting the future are possible. And there are enough charlatans out there, that it reinforces the image that these abilities aren't "real".
It could also be that in SE Asian culture, there was a pre-Buddhist tradition of healers or clairvoyants that got incorporated into Buddhism. Those gifts are often hereditary, so they wouldn't just go away because a new religion took over. Buddhism sometimes deliberately incorporated shamanic traditions, as a way of spreading the Dharma, a way of making the Dharma acceptable to populations that resisted it. Thanks for sharing.