"The world will be saved by the western woman" - HHDL

RainbowTara

Upon reading something @Jayantha posted in another thread (i.e. "He said many of the great teachers in Asia believe that the real Dhamma, even the next Buddha will arise in the west"), it reminded me of something I saw last year or so that the Dalai Lama said (see title quote).

Do you think the two intertwine somehow? I remember when I went to go see HHDL speak at Bethlehem, PA back around (oh, what was it...?) summer 2008, I think, that people were whispering things like "the next Dalai Lama is already born... she lives in Maryland, USA, and is a Catholic woman." People were saying that part of him was already "born" into this woman, and that's why they know it's her or something to that effect.

OR...

Are you under the assumption I initially was, that the title quote is simply referring to how the independence and compassion of the women in the west as a whole will help to liberate other women and minorities around the world and that's how the world will be "saved"?

Citta

Well see..there is this concept called "dukkha"...

taiyaki

thich nhat hanh is quoted saying that the next buddha of our time will be the sangha.

i do think the west has tremendous potential and i do think the feminine energy is what will liberate this aggressive side of the world.

but i also do think the world cannot be saved and that is why it is very dynamic and liberation is possible. infinite suffering and infinite freedom.

at the end of the day its all speculation and we must ask ourselves if this really matters to our practice and to our lives.

karasti

My sangha is watching a documentary on Jan 1 called "When the iron bird flies" that is about the spread of Buddhism to the western world, and based this quote:
“When the iron bird flies and horses run on wheels, the Tibetan people will be scattered like ants across the face of the earth.”

~ 8th century - Guru Padmasambhava

The movie implies, as I understand, that it is Buddhism and not Tibetan people that was the intention of the quote, but as usual, who knows, lol. It'll be interesting to watch though, I guess it's just fabulous.

vinlyn

Did HHDL really say that? If so, was he pandering a bit?

As to a lot of Westerners thinking that the rejuvenation of Buddhism will happen in the West...I think that's just being West-centric in thinking. Maybe it will be, but I'm not sure any one has a crystal ball to see that.

Dakini

vinlyn said:

Did HHDL really say that? If so, was he pandering a bit?

This. I think the DL is being a bit of a trendoid, here. But he has said in the past he may reincarnate as a woman, or in the West, or both, or neither--no more reincarnated DL's. I think all we can bank on is that after he dies, it's going to be chaos, with China appointing their own DL, or in some way trying to manipulate Tibetan opinion, or public opinion in China. It's going to be messy, and sad.

BhikkhuJayasara

Dakini said:

vinlyn said:

Did HHDL really say that? If so, was he pandering a bit?

This. I think the DL is being a bit of a trendoid, here. But he has said in the past he may reincarnate as a woman, or in the West, or both, or neither--no more reincarnated DL's. I think all we can bank on is that after he dies, it's going to be chaos, with China appointing their own DL, or in some way trying to manipulate Tibetan opinion, or public opinion in China. It's going to be messy, and sad.

there is a simple answer to this... The Buddha said it 2600 years ago... Some may say after I am gone, who will teach us... Let this dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, be your teacher.

So they don't even need a DL... Buddha solved that problem before it could happen :-]

Dakini

Jayantha said:

So they don't even need a DL...

Yes, haha, but try to convince the Tibetan people of that! They don't "need" a Karmapa, or all those other lineage heads and reincarnate lamas, either, but... they're not going to relinquish power and influence, and just go away.

BhikkhuJayasara

Dakini said:

Jayantha said:

So they don't even need a DL...

Yes, haha, but try to convince the Tibetan people of that! They don't "need" a Karmapa, or all those other lineage heads and reincarnate lamas, either, but... they're not going to relinquish power and influence, and just go away.

well i think the whole adding in the gurus refuge before bds refuges pretty much sealed the Tibetans fate for that lol..

I will have utter respect for the dl if he does that... Tells everyone to have dhama as their teacher. Im not holding my breath though , and its really none of my business being a Theravadan.

federica

I would point out the most active and vocal Mod on here - is female....

I rest my case....

:om:

BhikkhuJayasara

federica said:

I would point out the most active and vocal Mod on here - is female....

I rest my case....

:om:

those females ARE a loud pains in the butt.. Why do you think I want to be a monk so bad... A good excuse to be away from em lol

Jeffrey

Jayantha said:

Dakini said:

Jayantha said:

So they don't even need a DL...

Yes, haha, but try to convince the Tibetan people of that! They don't "need" a Karmapa, or all those other lineage heads and reincarnate lamas, either, but... they're not going to relinquish power and influence, and just go away.

well i think the whole adding in the gurus refuge before bds refuges pretty much sealed the Tibetans fate for that lol..

I will have utter respect for the dl if he does that... Tells everyone to have dhama as their teacher. Im not holding my breath though , and its really none of my business being a Theravadan.

@Jayantha, what is bds?

Jason

Jeffrey said:

Jayantha said:

Dakini said:

Jayantha said:

So they don't even need a DL...

Yes, haha, but try to convince the Tibetan people of that! They don't "need" a Karmapa, or all those other lineage heads and reincarnate lamas, either, but... they're not going to relinquish power and influence, and just go away.

well i think the whole adding in the gurus refuge before bds refuges pretty much sealed the Tibetans fate for that lol..

I will have utter respect for the dl if he does that... Tells everyone to have dhama as their teacher. Im not holding my breath though , and its really none of my business being a Theravadan.

@Jayantha, what is bds?

I assume he's referring to the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha.

Dakini

There have been female tulkus in Tibetan history, and even now there are a few.

karasti

Just for the record, I took my refuge in Tibetan lineage (Nyingma) and we did not take refuge in gurus. The heads never come up in teachings, either. The focus is always strictly on Buddha's teachings.

Dakini

karasti said:

Just for the record, I took my refuge in Tibetan lineage (Nyingma) and we did not take refuge in gurus.

This is good to hear. The refuge vows I've seen (Sakya) said nothing about taking refuge in the guru, either, but I've been told on other B. forums that it's standard to include a "fourth jewel" to the 3-Jewels refuge vow.

vinlyn

What is the 4th jewel?

Dakini

The guru/lama/teacher.

vinlyn

So he would not considered to be part of the Sangha? In Theravada you take refuge to the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha.

Jeffrey

The guru is valuable because it is the only relationship you have in your life that is pretty much outside the ego. The guru gives a method. Notice many people starting wonder which sutra they should read first and so forth. Just arguing that side, I know a lot of people don't like that there are gurus.

BhikkhuJayasara

The sangha we go for refuge with is of course first and foremost the aryian sangha, then also secondarily the bhukkuni/bhikunni sangha.. Any monastic would fit in there although not all Gurus need to he monastics as far as I know.. So the guru may not be in the refuge at that point.

Brian

I'm convinced that the next Buddha will arise not from the West, the East, the North, or the South. I'm convinced that the next Buddha will be a citizen of the internet.

BhikkhuJayasara

I dunno about this next buddha thing personally.. as far as I know from the Suttas the next Buddha doesn't come until the dhamma is totally forgotten, so we have a long time for that, an eon or so.

federica

Brian said:

I'm convinced that the next Buddha will arise not from the West, the East, the North, or the South. I'm convinced that the next Buddha will be a citizen of the internet.

Doubtless on FB and twitter......

zenff

The next Buddha could be the "crowd" as in "crowdsourcing".

In the classic use of the term, problems are broadcast to an unknown group of solvers in the form of an open call for solutions. Users—also known as the crowd—submit solutions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsourcing

Jason

Brian said:

I'm convinced that the next Buddha will arise not from the West, the East, the North, or the South. I'm convinced that the next Buddha will be a citizen of the internet.

A Diogenes of the Information Age. Asked where he came from, he said, "I am a citizen of the internet."

how

I thought that the Buddha to come was the understanding that he wasn't out there.

caz

how said:

I thought that the Buddha to come was the understanding that he wasn't out there.

You seem to be misinformed Sir, The Buddha to come is Maitreya after the Dharma of Shakyamuni Buddha has long since disappeared from this Earth.

how

Yes caz, that is the traditional answer and for many, the tradition is the answer.
but everywhere else Shakyamuni choose the answer that led folks directly towards the cessation of suffering. The traditional answer seems like thinly veiled god worship to me and I'm sure the teacher who disallowed the creation of his own image would not have approved. I get the aspect of appreciating the value of training in an active Buddha epoch but the only real place we can practise is where we are.

FoibleFull

I have read a quote from the Dalai Lama that said that he will incarnate only if the Tibetans want him to. And that if there is a next Dalai Lama, it might be a woman. And will not be born in China (whereupon, the Chinese made a law that the DL HAD to reincarnate in China lol).
At any rate, the Western-reincarnated Tulkus are not doing that well, apparently. I'd be surprised if there would be a claimed reincarnation in a Western family ... although maybe in a Tibetan family living in the West.

As for the comment about "Western women saving the world", I can kinda understand that ... because when no matter what dharma center I go to in North American, it seems that a large majority of the members are women.
So if Buddhists are going to be a positive influence in the West (and HHDL probably thinks they are) ... the majority of that will be females.

I've always wondered why the percentage of men is so small in dharma groups.

Dakini

FoibleFull said:

I've always wondered why the percentage of men is so small in dharma groups.

I've noticed this, too. And yet, when you look at Dharma center leadership, it's mostly male. So one wonders what's the dynamic that seems to favor men being in leadership positions, even when they're a small minority in the lower ranks. I've also noticed a predominance of women psychologists in the special courses I've attended, the ones that focus on a certain text. It would be easy to fall back on stereotypes and say something like, "women generally are more inclined toward nurturing and compassion" (though the opposite belief holds in parts of Buddhist Asia), but there must be more to it.

BhikkhuJayasara

Dakini said:

FoibleFull said:

I've always wondered why the percentage of men is so small in dharma groups.

I've noticed this, too. And yet, when you look at Dharma center leadership, it's mostly male. So one wonders what's the dynamic that seems to favor men being in leadership positions, even when they're a small minority in the lower ranks. I've also noticed a predominance of women psychologists in the special courses I've attended, the ones that focus on a certain text. It would be easy to fall back on stereotypes and say something like, "women generally are more inclined toward nurturing and compassion" (though the opposite belief holds in parts of Buddhist Asia), but there must be more to it.

It's been my experience that it's fairly equal gender number wise, at retreats and the like.

Jason

Jayantha said:

Dakini said:

FoibleFull said:

I've always wondered why the percentage of men is so small in dharma groups.

I've noticed this, too. And yet, when you look at Dharma center leadership, it's mostly male. So one wonders what's the dynamic that seems to favor men being in leadership positions, even when they're a small minority in the lower ranks. I've also noticed a predominance of women psychologists in the special courses I've attended, the ones that focus on a certain text. It would be easy to fall back on stereotypes and say something like, "women generally are more inclined toward nurturing and compassion" (though the opposite belief holds in parts of Buddhist Asia), but there must be more to it.

It's been my experience that it's fairly equal gender number wise, at retreats and the like.

The last couple I went to at Wat Atam in WA, which had a mix of Westerners and Thais, were about equal. The ones at Wat Buddhanusorn in CA were mostly Thai women. And the ones I went to at Wat Dhammasala in MI were most Western males.

Jason

Dakini said:

FoibleFull said:

I've always wondered why the percentage of men is so small in dharma groups.

I've noticed this, too. And yet, when you look at Dharma center leadership, it's mostly male. So one wonders what's the dynamic that seems to favor men being in leadership positions, even when they're a small minority in the lower ranks. I've also noticed a predominance of women psychologists in the special courses I've attended, the ones that focus on a certain text. It would be easy to fall back on stereotypes and say something like, "women generally are more inclined toward nurturing and compassion" (though the opposite belief holds in parts of Buddhist Asia), but there must be more to it.

I think some of that is due to the influence patriarchy has had on many societies and cultures around the world, particularly when it comes to leadership roles; but I think things are changing. The last two lay/meditation groups I've been a part of are led by women, both of them fairly large and successful. Beyond that, female monastics are also making a comeback, especially in the West. I was a student of Ayya Tathaaloka's when I used to live in California.

Jeffrey

My lama is female and has predominantly female students.

BhikkhuJayasara

for me in all honesty the gender matters little if they know how to teach dhamma.. for instance I like listening to this Bhikkhuni (her name begins with an H, don't remember)

even though she is hard to understand she is able to make you laugh and teach you dhamma similar to how Ajahn Brahm does --

RebeccaS

The world will be saved by THIS western woman.



I wonder what the context of his comment was. Does anyone know where/why he said it or what he was talking about?

Dakini

RebeccaS said:

I wonder what the context of his comment was. Does anyone know where/why he said it or what he was talking about?

lol! Great questions! Context is so important! "What was he thinking?" hmm.... :scratch:

lobster

The idea of gender in the future as fluid might be hard to comprehend? Is the idea of an AI as more human than we are now possible? The Buddha nature always was a 'woman'. Just remember we all end up in a box. You are as much Avalokiteśvara as the next Dalai lama . . .

music

The world will be saved by the western woman. But who's gonna save the western woman?

federica

Not you, sunny Jim....

David

RainbowTara said:

Upon reading something @Jayantha posted in another thread (i.e. "He said many of the great teachers in Asia believe that the real Dhamma, even the next Buddha will arise in the west"), it reminded me of something I saw last year or so that the Dalai Lama said (see title quote).

Do you think the two intertwine somehow? I remember when I went to go see HHDL speak at Bethlehem, PA back around (oh, what was it...?) summer 2008, I think, that people were whispering things like "the next Dalai Lama is already born... she lives in Maryland, USA, and is a Catholic woman." People were saying that part of him was already "born" into this woman, and that's why they know it's her or something to that effect.

OR...

Are you under the assumption I initially was, that the title quote is simply referring to how the independence and compassion of the women in the west as a whole will help to liberate other women and minorities around the world and that's how the world will be "saved"?

I think it's the latter. The spirit of the western woman is still rooted in nurturing but doesn't take any guff. When I saw the title of this thread I immediately pictured Malala Yousafzai. She isn't really western but she has the western womans spirit.

I think Maitreya is a collective mindset... A global awakening and it is people like this girl that will set off the avalanche. Yes, some say that Maitreya will not come until the Buddhas teachings have been forgotten but I don't think this claim was made taking the internet into account.

Our library is now cosmic and I think if the Buddhas teachings are forgotten here now, there will be no beings for Buddha to manifest in later.

David

We can't wait for some future Buddha to wake up for us.

The time is now.

federica

Hello....?
The time is always 'Now'....

BhikkhuJayasara

ourself said:

RainbowTara said:

Upon reading something @Jayantha posted in another thread (i.e. "He said many of the great teachers in Asia believe that the real Dhamma, even the next Buddha will arise in the west"), it reminded me of something I saw last year or so that the Dalai Lama said (see title quote).

Do you think the two intertwine somehow? I remember when I went to go see HHDL speak at Bethlehem, PA back around (oh, what was it...?) summer 2008, I think, that people were whispering things like "the next Dalai Lama is already born... she lives in Maryland, USA, and is a Catholic woman." People were saying that part of him was already "born" into this woman, and that's why they know it's her or something to that effect.

OR...

Are you under the assumption I initially was, that the title quote is simply referring to how the independence and compassion of the women in the west as a whole will help to liberate other women and minorities around the world and that's how the world will be "saved"?

I think it's the latter. The spirit of the western woman is still rooted in nurturing but doesn't take any guff. When I saw the title of this thread I immediately pictured Malala Yousafzai. She isn't really western but she has the western womans spirit.

I think Maitreya is a collective mindset... A global awakening and it is people like this girl that will set off the avalanche. Yes, some say that Maitreya will not come until the Buddhas teachings have been forgotten but I don't think this claim was made taking the internet into account.

Our library is now cosmic and I think if the Buddhas teachings are forgotten here now, there will be no beings for Buddha to manifest in later.

when the next Buddha comes is not a claim but what the Buddha said. Ij the Theravada the only difference between a Buddha and an arahant is that the Buddha finds the path by themselves after it has been lost. The next Buddha will not be for aeons as the dhamma has to be completely forgotten and then found again " like one would take an ancient path travelled by the rightly self awakened ones of former timed".

So if anyone is waiting on maitreya in their lifetime... Its about as likely as the world ending on 12/21/12.

David

federica said:

Hello....?
The time is always 'Now'....

That's my whole point, lol. It isn't going to happen in the future because it's always been happening right now. That's why I think Maitreya is a state of being and not a being like the Shakyamuni Buddha. Each cycle would bring a kind of progression I'd think.

Jayantha said:

when the next Buddha comes is not a claim but what the Buddha said. Ij the Theravada the only difference between a Buddha and an arahant is that the Buddha finds the path by themselves after it has been lost. The next Buddha will not be for aeons as the dhamma has to be completely forgotten and then found again " like one would take an ancient path travelled by the rightly self awakened ones of former timed".

Been lost to whom? To the universe? To Earth exclusively?

In a paradoxical way, the prophecy of Maitreya ensures that the dharma will never be lost.

So if anyone is waiting on maitreya in their lifetime... Its about as likely as the world ending on 12/21/12.

In a round about way, they could be taken as the same myth. That however is a discussion for comparative study and is likely off topic.

caz

Did you know Maitreya has already manifested countless emanations ? As one of the Bodhisattva disciples of Buddha he keeps the lineage of Buddha's Mahayana teachings and gave a very much loved commentary to Asanga on the meanings of the perfection of Wisdom Sutra's known as Ornament of Clear Realization and many other commentaries to Buddha's teachings. Please look them up if you want to know what Maitreya has been teaching !

BhikkhuJayasara

ourself said:

federica said:

Hello....?
The time is always 'Now'....

That's my whole point, lol. It isn't going to happen in the future because it's always been happening right now. That's why I think Maitreya is a state of being and not a being like the Shakyamuni Buddha. Each cycle would bring a kind of progression I'd think.

Jayantha said:

when the next Buddha comes is not a claim but what the Buddha said. Ij the Theravada the only difference between a Buddha and an arahant is that the Buddha finds the path by themselves after it has been lost. The next Buddha will not be for aeons as the dhamma has to be completely forgotten and then found again " like one would take an ancient path travelled by the rightly self awakened ones of former timed".

Been lost to whom? To the universe? To Earth exclusively?

In a paradoxical way, the prophecy of Maitreya ensures that the dharma will never be lost.

So if anyone is waiting on maitreya in their lifetime... Its about as likely as the world ending on 12/21/12.

In a round about way, they could be taken as the same myth. That however is a discussion for comparative study and is likely off topic.



From what I've read and been told by monastics a Buddha is specific to one world system so there are probably innumerable amounts of Buddhas in the past and present across all the universes. And it makes perfect sense for the Dhamma to be lost as all things are impermanent even Dhamma, and then found by future self awakened ones.

caz said:

Did you know Maitreya has already manifested countless emanations ? As one of the Bodhisattva disciples of Buddha he keeps the lineage of Buddha's Mahayana teachings and gave a very much loved commentary to Asanga on the meanings of the perfection of Wisdom Sutra's known as Ornament of Clear Realization and many other commentaries to Buddha's teachings. Please look them up if you want to know what Maitreya has been teaching !

Frankly I could care less about Maitreya... I'm not even all that attached to Siddhartha Gautama if truth be told.. while I go for refuge to all the Buddhas and arahants.. it is the dhamma that most impresses me and that I feel is the most important thing followed by the Buddha and sangha. Gautama said that the Dhamma he expounded is our teacher, and for that I am ever grateful that I am now able to practice dhamma, but Dhamma is the supreme refuge to me.

lobster

Frankly I could not care less about Maitreya... I'm not even all that attached to Siddhartha Gautama if truth be told..

:clap:
You will make a great monk. Integrity to your own understanding. Clone production orthodoxy sometimes leads to a better quality of snoring during meditation. I wish you well and hope you still intend to sign up . . .

. . . meanwhile I have great hope for the Metta Ray or Maitreya being a self aware and enlightened AI but we are a while away from such a possibility . . .

We are also not quite ready for people being gender independent or having their DNA tweaked to include the latest must have genetic code implant. Would you for example allow your grandkids to activate the code responsible for enlightened behaviour, assuming it could be replicated and provided as an 'inoculation'?
It one thing people changing gender over incarnations. What happens when it becomes part of potential youth culture?

:rockon:

David

Jayantha said:

From what I've read and been told by monastics a Buddha is specific to one world system so there are probably innumerable amounts of Buddhas in the past and present across all the universes. And it makes perfect sense for the Dhamma to be lost as all things are impermanent even Dhamma, and then found by future self awakened ones.

But if it can be found, it was never really lost.

Also if in the absolute sense there is no true seperation, how could there be more than one true world system?

I could see there being many big bangs but not many universes.

Blueaphid

Like that from 'ourself'. Neat.