If there is No such thing as Dualism then there can be No such thing as Enlightenment...

zenmyste

If there is such a thing called enlightenment (whatever the definition) then that means someone is 'enlightened' and someone else is 'NOT'..

Even if its just a case of ''we all are enlightened, we just dont know it''
that is still a 'dualistic' reality.. (one ''knows'' and the other ''doesnt'')
hence there is such a thing as dualism in reality..

if there is no dualism - there is no enlightenment..

What are your thoughts on this?

(source unkown)

Jeffrey

Enlightenment is not created. It is discovered. So all beings are sufficient they just haven't realized it. There is non-self and that is similar to non-dualism. But your pretty much right and that's an awesome question. Knowing is also non-dual I guess. Knowing as a phenomena is empty of inherent existence and is negated. The heart sutra says there is no attainment, thus no fear, and no deception.

So this leads to the question of how there can be a path in light of the heart sutra. This is the question that sent Dogen to China to study. (I think)

The nature of the knowing is openness, clarity, and sensitivity and that is ultimate bodhicitta. We already have it because it is the nature of the universe and scientient beings.

Rodrigo

Dualism is a concept. Reality (or the truth, or the cosmos, or the enlightenment) is not conceptual.

zenmyste

ive also recently read this;

''There is no such thing as ''enlightenment'' because there is ''no one'' to become enlightened..''

mmm, very true....

Jeffrey

I think shunryu suzuki said there is no one who is enlightened there is just enlightened activity. So it could be a verb and not a noun.

sova

"Strictly speaking, there are no enlightened people, just enlightened action." ~ Shunryu Suzuki

sova

@Jeffrey, I didn't even notice your post. Yes, you were correct in attribution to Shunryu Suzuki. (and everything he isn't ) =D

zenmyste said:

if there is no dualism - there is no enlightenment..

logically there would also be nothing apart from enlightenment, either.


nonduality is the pointer to an experience. the sounds and letters are like a road sign. to inspect the sign with a microscope is not the same as reading the sign and walking

zenmyste

WHAT exactly ''is'' enlightened 'action'??

Jeffrey

^ note there is a new thread to discuss that last question.

lobster

What are your thoughts on this?

I intend to leave the thinking, reach the paradoxical, whatever the non dual think.

Buddhahood here I come . . . :clap:

taiyaki

Sentient beings conceive of things as existent and non-existent.

Enlightenment is the realization and experience of the lack of inherent existence of both self and phenomena.

This lack brings about release and understanding that everything is concocted or dependently originated.

The end of proliferation is the end of dualism. Enlightenment isn't a thing or a stage to attain. It is the end of ignorance, greed, and aversion. The cutting away at the fundamental delusion of "inherent existence".

David

Dualism is just a tool we use like a labelling system for all aspects of being.

Jeffrey

@taiyaki, could you say more about how a release comes about from realizing non-inherent existence. I've understood this intellectually for about 8 years, but I haven't experienced release from my own fast-motion problems. My voices happen so fast and so progressively in time that I have no notion of helpfulness from realizing they are empty. In other words, they still kick my ass. I still have phobias about working and I still have side effects from medicine. For me the greatest relief comes from refuge and knowing that the mandala of awakening will keep calling me despite the little problems I have in life. That last makes me feel like I am not just a waste.

So could you say something about how the release happens?

taiyaki

Well examine this I. Not as an idea but when there is fear, aversion, craving, afflictive emotions. Feel it in the body, where exactly is this "i, my, me, mine, center, hereness, source, whatever we consider ourselves to be.

That is key for subject unbinding and that extends eventually to the unbinding of all things. But start with the self, the center.

There are infinite ways to approach this. For example one must really know and feel what inherent existence means. What does ignorance mean? What is it exactly. And when one knows what that is in experience then one knows what exactly is refuted and seen to be void and hallow.

So here is an example that I like to do. I just think and feel about anger. All the fuckers that piss me off. All the people I hate and cannot stand. And I build that emotion and hatred. Then I stop and examine where is this I. Where exactly is this self. The emotions always presuppose a self or a center. And with enough samadhi and stability one can actively see an absence of what was assumed via ignorance. A self is not found. And seeing that brings about a release in that anger, a release in that holding. The house of cards just breaks down and has nothing to support it.

And sometimes i examine the object instead of the subject. I look at an image of a beautiful girl. Is this beautiful? Is this inherently pretty? Or is this just colors and shapes and beauty imputed on the basis of something there inherently existing. Where exactly is the image or the beauty?

And in all examinations if inherent existence is correctly pointed out then one cannot find it and instead a lack is found.

But that doesn't assert nihilism. It asserts that the assumptions about how things exists were wrong and in fact they are dependently originated thus void.

Things exists and function. They just don't exist as we assume them to be. They exist only as nominal projections on the basis of assumed things. So emptiness built in emptiness haha.

Here we must understand that there is no final answers. No ground to hold onto. We examine and find a lack and when this is done with a correct view and without coopting it into another fabrication then release is inevitable. Take away the conditions and nothing can grow.

Take water away and the human cannot live. Cut ignorance and the proliferation of self and other ends.

This probably won't answer your question because you need to see directly how things are built and how things deconstruct. That is the whole
Point of this buddhist path and no one can give you such knowledge. Just examine for yourself and allow the teachings to live out in your life.

taiyaki

Having good enough samadhi and abiding in a calm state is a must for emptiness and really any form of investigation.

In he beginning we find ourselves working with mostly the conditions of a moral life, peace of mind and building concentration.

These are the foundation to exploration and they play off each other.

In a very experiential way emptiness means that when we look for that which was assumed we find an absence. And from there we do not make this absence into something nor do we make any kind of ground. We take the view of depedent origination and thus free ourselves from the views of existence and non-existence.

Things exist but not how we conceptually build things to be. They exist dependent on a nexus of causes and conditions.

So work with the conditions at hand. Refine your views and trust your experience.

Jeffrey

So maybe I can see that there is no need to remove the voices rather than see it as me versus them. It's hard because it is such a riot and pushing my buttons.

taiyaki

Everything comes from you and not at you. Relationship is everything. Do not let anything take away your peace of
Mind and freedom to be happy.

Remember just sounds. Just thoughts. Nothing truly established.

Jeffrey

The problem is when I think things like that the voices react. They know if I am trying to play a trick on them. So it's like 6 angry voices pushing buttons. So it is hard to find ground to understand things.

taiyaki

Love is the only way to move from where you're at. An embrace of yourself and others in suffering and death.

In any space place kindness and love and letting go or letting be.

Then problems will resolve themselves and we don't have to resort to manipulation and control.

Honor that which arises be it wrathful or peaceful but do not be conditioned by it.

May you be well friend.

lobster

The problem is when I think things like that the voices react. They know if I am trying to play a trick on them. So it's like 6 angry voices pushing buttons. So it is hard to find ground to understand things.

I think we all have arisings and doubts, yours are vocal and manifest. that you can post so intelligibly is a credit to you and those supporting and treating you. I agree with taiyaki that experiencing button pushers, trolls, 'enemies', doubts, voices etc as convoluted or knotted forms of Love to be treated with Love may be your way . . .

The current head of this order has had mental health issues and may be of interest to your voices . . .
http://www.goldensufi.org/about.html

In terms of Buddhism, Tonglen is what comes to mind . . .
I like the sound of your voices, I will pray for them and hope others more able will too . . .