Are the jhanas essential?

DairyLama

The jhanas are repeatedly mentioned in the sutttas, suggesting that they are an important aspect of practice. And Right Concentration, a factor of the 8-fold path, is defined in terms of the jhanas.
And yet some teachers say they are unimportant.
What's your take on this?

Citta

I think that we should try to be consistent to the approach that we have embarked on.
Some approaches emphasise Jhanic states..some dont. Some eschew them altogether.

ThailandTom

From what I can gather they are reached when a mediator reaches a certain level of concentration and mindfulness, the 2 main factors that are cultivated over time to liberation. I myself have never even got as far as experiencing a jhana, so I do not have much more to say on the matter :-/

Jeffrey

They don't lead directly to Nirvana and they are hard to attain. If you choose between effort to reach Nirvana through shamata-vipashyana meditation or working on Jhana wouldn't it be better to reach Nirvana. You *can* use Jhana as part of your practice just like you can use metta etc..

Here's a part of what my teacher said when I asked her about Jhana (Dhyana)...

It seems to me that you have a heartwish for peace and equanimity.......................you have just started wondering if there is a way of achieving dhyana that works better than what you are doing now. That is a reasonable thing to be wondering. In the Mahamudra and Dzogchen tradition they teach that the faster route is not to bother to develop the dhyanas but to go straight for the path of adhistana (blessing) and open up to all experience rather than trying too hard to control what arises in the mind. The reason is that dhyanic states dont last forever and when they end the suffering can be terrible. And all you can do then is again seek the path to awakening and follow it. So you may as well do that now. Why not? If you keep the Refuge and the Bodhisattva motivation very strong in your mind you wont go far astray and your mind will certainly become happier and more peaceful. Then by all means cultivate shamata or dhyana to the degree that you can and is helpful for furthering your understanding of Dharma. That is a good aspiration to have.

upekka

taking an object, say 'in-breath and out-breath' or the word 'buddho' and continue to keep the mind on that object for a while helps to gain the first Jhana
(in this instance we have
the first effort (viriya) which is to have a wholesome thought in the mind
and
the second effort (viriya) which is not to allow unwholesome thought comes into the mind)


instead of taking one object, we can use 'asuba bavana, contemplating on body' or 'marananussati, contemplating on death' etc.
these would directly help to realize 'anicca, dukka, anatta'

we can take whatever we are comfortable with as our contemplating object or objects


if we are successful we will be able to come to the first jhana
(we can see in our mind there are only wholesome thoughts which are the 'vitakka and viccara', and we feel mild rapture etc. the qualities in first jhana)

knowing this stage we can continue and then we will be able to experience the second jhana (there is a feeling of happiness -Prithi- which can be experience in the body- we do not feel any ache or pain in the body at this time)

if we experience the above, now we can check whether we have any emotion in our mind
if there is no emotion then that will move us further (no bodily discomfort and no discomfort in mind -Suka-) to concentrated mind which is third jhana

if we continue further we will be able to experience 'upekka' equanimity where neither pleasure nor un pleasure feeling which is fourth jhana

in this way we continue our jhana states with knowing where we are going rather than just be going into hypnotized states of mind

we are aware of where we are going and what is happening to us for the whole time of meditation

BhikkhuJayasara

As said they are not essential to liberation and some teachers recommend them, others do not. Seems like they are essential if you want to remember past lives and stuff like that. I can't speak about them through my own personal experience so I can't/wont say much.

I do know that Bhante G recommends them. I plan to take a Jhana retreat at Bhavana Society this year, I've never taken any Jhana retreats before or "tried" to do Jhana.... at this point I feel mindfully observing is more important.

upekka

one more thing to add to the upekka's above post

whether we know or not know, we have jhana state before we experience 'emptiness' , 'sunnatha', or 'anatta'

that state can come through sitting, staanding, or walking meditation
it says, venerable Ananda experienced liberation without those four postures (it says when he was trying to keep his head on the pillow he liberated)

in suttas it say
with first jhana one can liberate
with second jhana one can liberate
with third jhana one can liberate
with fourth, fifth... upto eighth jhana one can liberate

Jeffrey

whether we know or not know, we have jhana state before we experience 'emptiness' , 'sunnatha', or 'anatta'

Where did you hear that? A particular sutra? A teacher?

upekka

Jeffrey said:

whether we know or not know, we have jhana state before we experience 'emptiness' , 'sunnatha', or 'anatta'

Where did you hear that? A particular sutra? A teacher?

to understand (experience) sunnatha or anatta, one needs to be on Noble Eight-fold Path (all the eight factors should be line with the Right View)

Right Concentration on Noble Eight-fold Path means one or more Jhana

there is a possibility that people do not know that they are experiencing jhana because they do not check the jhana qualities within their concentrated mind or they do not know how to check them

that is why that phrase 'whether we know or not know we have jhana' was there

Jeffrey

I'm not sure the mahayana defines concentration as jhana. I believe it is defined as samadhi which is not an experience, it is a quality of awareness. An experience correlating with this might be Jhana or maybe a nyam such as nyam of infinite space. Not sure. I read something recently but I forget where I read it The mahayana defines realization of shunyata as the realization all can become Buddhas along with uncovering of bodhicitta. So I wonder what the relationship between bodhicitta and the jhanas would be??

pegembara

Mental stillness(samadhi) is required for development of insight. If the mind has no stillness, how can one experience the arising and passing away of phenomenon. This is the direct experience that everything that arises passes away (sabbe sankhara anicca
).

That is why it is a factor of the N8FP.

DairyLama

pegembara said:

Mental stillness(samadhi) is required for development of insight. If the mind has no stillness, how can one experience the arising and passing away of phenomenon. This is the direct experience that everything that arises passes away (sabbe sankhara anicca
).
That is why it is a factor of the N8FP.

But as a path factor samadhi is defined in terms of the jhanas. As a path factor insight is more obviously associated with sati ( mindfulness ).

DairyLama

Jeffrey said:

They don't lead directly to Nirvana and they are hard to attain.

But in the suttas the Buddha is described as traversing the jhanas immediately prior to his awakening - so it appears they do lead directly to Nirvana.
Hard to attain - yes, but that isn't a good reason for ignoring them.

Jeffrey

@PedanticPorpoise, so because they occured prior to enlightenment you are saying that Jhana leads to enlightenment?

If that is true then anyone who attains Jhana should become enlightened, right? We had someone on the forum who said that they had become a jhana junky and suffered terribly from his habit.

caz

Jeffrey said:

@PedanticPorpoise, so because they occured prior to enlightenment you are saying that Jhana leads to enlightenment?

If that is true then anyone who attains Jhana should become enlightened, right? We had someone on the forum who said that they had become a jhana junky and suffered terribly from his habit.

Even Non Buddhists practice concentration, It is concentration combined with Insight that is a special quality of Buddhadharma which makes it a genuine path to Liberation.

upekka

Jeffrey said:

then anyone who attains Jhana should become enlightened, right?

No

haven't you heard that one of Siddhatta acetic's previous teacher Alara-kalama had attained Eight Jhana (nevasanna-nasanna-ayathana) couldn't enlightened?

there are four ways to become enlightened
1.dukka patipada danda abinna (start from contemplating on food, body, etc. where the different methods introduce in kayanaupassana)
in this situation one's five faculties (sadda, viriya, sati, samadhi, panna) has developed mildly

2. dukka patipada kippa abinna (vedananupassana)
by this time one's five faculties has sharply developed

3. suka patipada danda abinna (cittanupassana)
by this time one's jhana qulities refined and five faculties developed mildly

4. suka patipada kippa abinna (dhammanupassana)
by this time one's jhana qualities refined and five faculties sharply developed

if we are still at the beginners level we are at first way

if we are at medium level we are at second way (this is the method that Arant Mugalan Enlighted)

if we have already developed our jhana qualities but not sharpened our five faculties we are at third way

if we have already developed our jhana qualities and sharpened our five faculties we are at fourth way (this is the method Arant Sariputta Enlightened )

Jeffrey

@upekka, do you know of any correspondance course or materials to learn jhana? Would it be impossible with a barky dog? How many hours of meditation could we reasonably expect in training?

Sabre

Yes, they are essential. It's the jhanas that provide the material for deeper insights because they bring you back to the real basic mind. Also, if they weren't essential, the Buddha wouldn't have put them in the eightfold path. A lot of things he supposedly could are NOT in there, so he did select on what was necessary and what wasn't.

Happy meditation all!

Jeffrey

Next February when my Lama is off of retreat I will ask her. It seems like I have never heard much about Dhyana as necessary to the path in Mahayana Buddhism.

upekka

Jeffrey said:

@upekka, do you know of any correspondance course or materials to learn jhana?

Ajhan Bram's 'Bliss and Beyond' would be good

Would it be impossible with a barky dog?

No, consider him (it) as a dear friend sitting close to you

How many hours of meditation could we reasonably expect in training?

one hour at least for sitting meditation,
but try to be think about dhamma you have learned during the day whenever it is possible and with whatever you do
it will become a habit after a while, so then most of the time your mind is with Dhamma without knowing that you are involve in dhamma thought
(then you are practicing first effort namely, do not allow an unwholesome thought comes into mind)

DairyLama

Jeffrey said:

@PedanticPorpoise, so because they occured prior to enlightenment you are saying that Jhana leads to enlightenment?

No, I'm suggesting that jhana is an essential stepping-stone. My logic is that if it wasn't essential then it wouldn't be in the 8-fold path ( Right Concentration = jhana ).

BonsaiDoug

A good book on this subject: "Beyond Mindfulness In Plain English: An introductory guide to Deeper States Of Meditation" by Bhante Henepola Gunaratana.

Deepankar

Jhanas is essential. Buddha enlightenment is Jhanas(stillness), not from meditation or mindful However, one needs to meditate to achieve Jhanas and from Jhanas develops wisdom bliss, this wisdom bliss is Jhanas or suchness in other term.

FullCircle

My teacher said jhanas are not a necessity. He does not practice them. Not everyone's mind has the nature to attain jhanas. Even Bhante G has said this. One can still awaken.

BonsaiDoug

FullCircle said:

Not everyone's mind has the nature to attain jhanas. Even Bhante G has said this. One can still awaken.

How true. I hope.

elenagreene

I have read that when achieving jhana, you may appear to be in a coma and that you can't control when you come out of it. Is this true? If so, it doesn't sound at all practical for parents or caregivers or anyone else with people depending on them 24/7. How do people who practice jhanas manage other responsibilities?

I'm curious rather than concerned. I struggle to fit in even a brief, simple meditation every day and then I'm not very "good" at it (though it is good for me).

Sabre

What's practical about sitting on a cushion with your eyes closed, anyway?

BonsaiDoug

elenagreene said:

I have read that when achieving jhana, you may appear to be in a coma and that you can't control when you come out of it. Is this true?

From all I've read, no this is not true. A jhana state is one of higher concentration; not some sort of trance.

upekka

FullCircle said:

Not everyone's mind has the nature to attain jhanas.

This is true for Second Jhana state, Third Jhana state, ..........Eight Jhana state

but
anybody can attain first jhana state if one can really supress the thinking process (when a thought comes into the mind, grab it and think over it-involve in future or past)
thinking is what we do all the time, with our delusional mind

only if we give an pure object to the mind to hold on (like 'in-breath-out-breath' or 'may all beings be well and happy' or 'buddho') and continuously keep the mind on it, after a while it will enter into the first jhana

this is possible for anyone (whether you know or not know you are in first jhana if your mind is not trying to involve in future or past which means in your mind there are no five hindrances -kamaccanda, vyapada, thina-middha, uddacca, kukkucca)

you do not have to try to attain jhana, but what you have to do is to give a pure object to the mind to hold onto and keep on holding to it

just arguing or just providing what you have read before (all such things are knowledge you get from out side, including what you have read in this post) just try and see what will happen

the experience you will get is not a thing you have heard or read but your own experience

why not do it today

One can still awaken.

have no doubt

elenagreene

I found the reference. It was from Ajahn Brahm's Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond. He describes a case where someone entered jhana and was taken to the emergency room with no obvious heartbeat or brain activity. http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=15340

As I said, I'm not at all advanced. I found some parts of the book helpful but I can't comment on the sections regarding jhanas. I am just curious.

Jeffrey

Is there something more to Jhana than ecstacy. In the past 12 years I've had one meditation where my head glowed with pleasure and when my mom came down in the morning my energy was infectious for awhile, just a great morning, but it seemed magical. Next year I had a meditation where it was just effortless. I meditated for 3 hours straight and it was just serene as can be.

So what is Jhana? Is there more to it than pleasure?

upekka

Jeffrey said:

So what is Jhana?

having a serene mind without any hassle from other five senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body) for a long time

when we say 'a serene mind' there is no thinking of past or future too

DairyLama

Jeffrey said:

So what is Jhana? Is there more to it than pleasure?

Basically the jhanas are a progression of absorption factors culminating in equanimity, and dependent on a temporary suspension of the 5 hindrances

Zero

PedanticPorpoise said:

I'm suggesting that jhana is an essential stepping-stone.

Perhaps inevitable rather than essential.

DairyLama

Zero said:

PedanticPorpoise said:

I'm suggesting that jhana is an essential stepping-stone.

Perhaps inevitable rather than essential.

I wish they were inevitable.
Some teachers advocate "dry insight", basically leaving out the jhanas.

pommesetoranges

PedanticPorpoise said:

Zero said:

PedanticPorpoise said:

I'm suggesting that jhana is an essential stepping-stone.

Perhaps inevitable rather than essential.

I wish they were inevitable.
Some teachers advocate "dry insight", basically leaving out the jhanas.

And that's exactly what I don't understand. I really don't like this “hush-hush” attitude when it comes to attainments of the path. I could imagine that my progress would look totally different hadn't been for the fact that I'm a self-learner. Not that I realized all that is to be realized, but I seriously think that higher concentration states have a lot to offer, also in terms of profound insights, and that a lot of people can miss out on this blindly following their teachers. That's why I have so much problem in finding right meditation teacher (as opposed to a therapist). I also think that at some point it is virtually impossible not to get insights even during textbook concentration meditations, and the most memorable and insightful of my experiences happen to be the ones during which I managed to exert highest levels of concentration. How many beginners are actually able to do a proper insight session without getting lost in their "stuff" after some time anyways? Solid concentration skills are what helps in your daily experience, helps you become a better person and helps you sort out your "stuff". They say that you can get addicted to jhana states and stop making progress. Sure you can. You can also be delusional about pretty much anything else. My point is that being able to get to higher jhanas with ease is a clear marker of progress in meditation and meditation is what the actual practice is all about. That's what makes Buddhism different. That's why I think many techniques found in Yoga, equivalents of which are hard to find in traditional Buddhist schools, are definitely worth exploring. There are many precious and powerful things out there in the world and please don't let the dogma stop you from benefiting from them. Dharma =/= dogma.

Zero

PedanticPorpoise said:

I wish they were inevitable.
Some teachers advocate "dry insight", basically leaving out the jhanas.

I'm not sure - never been a proponent of the 'dry' way!! mine is more akin to jumping in with both feet, thoroughly soaked!

Are you asking for yourself or to guide others?

I read an interesting quote once: It cannot be found by seeking, though it is only the seekers who find it.

elenagreene

I think it somehow got missed--or maybe no one who noticed knows an answer--but earlier I mentioned a passage on jhanas that concerned me, from Ajahn Brahm's Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond. He describes a case where someone entered jhana and was taken to the emergency room with no obvious heartbeat or brain activity. http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=15340

Does anyone have experience/thoughts on this? I seriously doubt I have to worry about anything like this happening anytime soon, but I'm still curious.

Zero

elenagreene said:

Does anyone have experience/thoughts on this?
I seriously doubt I have to worry about anything like this happening anytime soon, but I'm still curious.

Everyone and every experience is different.

I suppose if you meditate alone, you will not face this issue.

I am not aware of a physical detriment arising from an altered state of consciousness - that's just me though.

Equally I can have a drink, not be drunk and not made a t1t of myself - doesnt mean it will never happen and nor that everyone's relationship with alcohol will be the same.

driedleaf

One can always set nirvana aside and see if Jhanas can be reached. Perhaps nirvana is out of the question if one's meditation does not bring any good results.

upekka

PedanticPorpoise said:

Some teachers advocate "dry insight", basically leaving out the jhanas.

that is because they go through 'dukka patipada dhanda aninna' (kayanupassana)

if they had been doing meditation in their previous lives, the 'insight' (Right view) happens during the time of their meditation like contemplation on body, contemplation food, contemplation on breath, contemplation on death, contemplation on elements etc.

whether they like jhana or not they go through jhana if they contemplate on such 'things' for a long time

they are not worried about attain jhana states but they automatically get jhana states


the same goes with 'dukka patipada kippa abinna' (vedananupassana)
but
here their faculties are developed than before and they contemplate on six senses and the feeling
again they like it or not they go through jhana states before they get insight


the next
is suka patipada dhanda abinna (cittanupassana) where there one interests in jhana and try to attain First, Second jhana etc. and then get the insight
here one's faculties has not developed enough (they have only mildly developed faculties)

the fourth
is suka patipada kippa abinna (dhammanupassana) where they skilfully attain jhana states and gain the insight

(faculties are sadda-faith, viriya-energy, sati-mindfulness, samadhi-jhana (tranquality) and panna-wisdom)

Jeffrey

From mahamudra perspective those five faculties (faculties are sadda-faith, viriya-energy, sati-mindfulness, samadhi-jhana (tranquality) and panna-wisdom)
are here even when not in jhana. The five indiryas. You can read about that view in Rigdzin Shikpo's: Openness, Clarity, and Sensitivity.

upekka

Jeffrey said:

those five faculties (faculties are sadda-faith, viriya-energy, sati-mindfulness, samadhi-jhana (tranquality) and panna-wisdom)
are here even when not in jhana. The five indiryas.

True

those five faculties are perfected by Arahnts

for others
those five faculties are at different degrees

Deepankar

The five faculties is not separate. It is only one. For example, the sadda-faith of scientist and that of buddha is different, the journey and destination is different, and the direct effect of the other four is not the same.

Jeffrey

Deepankar, are you saying the five faculties are different like the scientist and buddha are different? Or are you saying they are not separate like in your first sentence?

I would guess that if you develop one it will lead you to develop the others

taiyaki

I think so.

Jhanas are just a product of letting go.

So whether one cultivates wisdom or the practice of shamatha they all lead to the same road which is of letting go.

What happens when we let go? The Jhanas happen. Existence itself start to become more unstable and less solid.

What happen when jhanas occur? The object of shamatha turns into a feeling of bliss and then joy and then peace. Then you have the formless jhanas of space, consciousness, nothingness and neither perception or non-perception.

These are all subtle and refined mind states, which are all fabrications of dualistic consciousness. And once they are made they are unmade and then nirvana or total unbinding is reached (non dualistic consciousness).

This is the path of the meditator.

Now there are some paths that cut straight to the non dualistic consciousness and then have no need to develop the hard jhantic states. But I do think at least a solid base of shamatha is required.

Some paths develop the formless jhanas say like the path of Mahamudra.

Well there are some ideas to chew on.

Jeffrey

@taiyaki, I think the Mahamudra does not encourage the formless Jhana. In fact they say to devout your time to realize the intrinsic openness, clarity, and sensivity.

The spaciousness/openness is NOT the formless realm in Jhana because it is a facet of the Rigpa I guess. Formless meditation in my sangha is not a tantra, but it is said that it opens to it. Opens to Dzogchen, etc..

So there is a big difference between unconditional (yogacara view) nature of mind and a Jhanic realm which is impermanent.

It is a difference between "I need space" and star trek voyages into space. The first is the sensitivity, the discomfort, of the citta/mind. It is a fundamental quality to feel free and open. When we are not open ie claustrophobic that just shows that we know there is a quality of space that we want to get back to. So that dukkha can be sensitivity and it is turning towards the claustrophic feeling. That inherent mind is different from Jhana. From the Jhana of space that is an experience. An experience which is impermanen and therefore potentially dukkha. Trungpa said that craving states of mind can lead a person to bondage.

taiyaki

In view there is a difference. In experience they are the same.

Deepankar

Vairocana cuckoo is essential and is Jhanas

Jeffrey

No @taiyaki, because there is a difference between the nature of mind and a fleeting state. The nature of mind. The nature of mind is there in a serial killer. They are spacious. But they are not in Jhana.

taiyaki

The nature of mind and a fleeting state are the same.

Non duality of Emptiness and spontaneous arising = nature of mind.

We'll have to agree to disagree