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It's a ven diagram. The nature of mind is everything there. But Jhana is a section. A fleeting experience is not a refuge because it ends. But the mind as I am speaking of is always there. And the mind I am speaking of is the ultimate refuge. If you cannot rely on your mind then nirvana is not possible. But Jhana is unreliable, for instance if you are a Jhana addict. Those actually exist.
I guess it depends what you mean by an experience. You can say we are all enlightened already and that each of our experience is enlightened activity. But if you said that you might not practice at all due to as Trungpa coined, shunyata poisoning.
The only true refuge is the nature of mind which is no nature.
Dualistic vision sees that mind is apart from the imperment arisings.
This should be investigated. Mind is exactly the arisings, which in their true form is the unborn buddha mind not as a static lifeless thing but a dynamic interplay of empty energy.
The nature of mind is everything there. But Jhana is a section. A fleeting experience is not a refuge because it ends. But the mind as I am speaking of is always there.
It sounds as if your approach isn't based on the 8-fold path, in which case the OP question probably isn't relevant to you anyway.
I don't understand how you came to that conclusion, @PedanticPorpoise? Are you saying Jhana is not impermanent? Or are you saying jhana is more than a section of all possible experiences?
I don't understand how you came to that conclusion, @PedanticPorpoise? Are you saying Jhana is not impermanent? Or are you saying jhana is more than a section of all possible experiences?
I just mean that if jhana isn't a recognised aspect of practice within your tradition the discusion is somewhat academic.
I don't understand how you came to that conclusion, @PedanticPorpoise? Are you saying Jhana is not impermanent? Or are you saying jhana is more than a section of all possible experiences?
I just mean that if jhana isn't a recognised aspect of practice within your tradition the discusion is somewhat academic.
It is but not how its traditionally described and categorized.
I don't understand how you came to that conclusion, @PedanticPorpoise? Are you saying Jhana is not impermanent? Or are you saying jhana is more than a section of all possible experiences?
I just mean that if jhana isn't a recognised aspect of practice within your tradition the discusion is somewhat academic.
It is but not how its traditionally described and categorized.
Thanks, I wasn't sure about this. There seem to be many different approaches to meditation, even within traditions.
I don't understand how you came to that conclusion, @PedanticPorpoise? Are you saying Jhana is not impermanent? Or are you saying jhana is more than a section of all possible experiences?
I just mean that if jhana isn't a recognised aspect of practice within your tradition the discusion is somewhat academic.
It is but not how its traditionally described and categorized.
Thanks, I wasn't sure about this. There seem to be many different approaches to meditation, even within traditions.
Yes, I am confident that Mahamudra meditation works in the realm of mind. So it explores aspects of mind such as nothingness, infinite space and infinite consciousness.
But those are described in Mahamudra as aspects of the mind, not necessarily stages to attain.
But then again the formless/form jhanas are the result of letting go and less construction.
It is really only Dzogchen that goes beyond mind completely and doesn't place too much emphasis on aspects of mind. If an individual can abide in the natural state then they are completely enlightened. But generally the three vehicles become the path after a glimpse of the natural state. Thus depending on the individual jhana may be necessary and even essential.
Just like an alcoholic needs to renounce alcohol for progression and some people can drink without a problem. The first yana can be of major benefit and may even be a better yana then say Vajrayana. Whereas Vajrayana may be a better fit for other individuals with certain karmic dispositions.
Again its all relative to the individual. Lol it seems that's a catch phrase for myself lately.
@PedanticPorpoise, anyone who meditates may discover Jhana and in the Mahayana it is called Dhyana. The tantric and mahayana take all states as path rather than try to get certain good ones so there is a different view towards Dhyana than in the Theravada. But it's still there. When my teacher gets out from retreat I want to ask her more about this, because I have a goal of reaching Dhyana. However it is not the goal of my practice, it is just something, a factor, I want to cultivate to help things out.
@taiyaki, I wish I could meet my teacher and her husband for coffee and learn more about comparing Dzogchen/Mahamudra. She teaches Mahamudra and he teaches Dzogchen. He wrote a book, basically the same teaching as his wife, about openness, clarity, and sensitivity as the nature of the mind.
It is really only Dzogchen that goes beyond mind completely and doesn't place too much emphasis on aspects of mind. If an individual can abide in the natural state then they are completely enlightened. But generally the three vehicles become the path after a glimpse of the natural state. Thus depending on the individual jhana may be necessary and even essential.
But the nature of mind is the natural state! Knowledge of the aspects of mind is just one facet of clarity. Mahamudra is all three aspects: openness, clarity, and sensitivity.
It is really only Dzogchen that goes beyond mind completely and doesn't place too much emphasis on aspects of mind. If an individual can abide in the natural state then they are completely enlightened. But generally the three vehicles become the path after a glimpse of the natural state. Thus depending on the individual jhana may be necessary and even essential.
But the nature of mind is the natural state! Knowledge of the aspects of mind is just one facet of clarity. Mahamudra is all three aspects: openness, clarity, and sensitivity.
According to the Mahamudra point of view and particularly the Zhentong view. But that is off topic and we must respect op.
As far as off topic I did not bring the topic up I just responded to what I saw written in your post. But I agree it is off topic.
On topic I would say realization of the nature of mind is essential whereas Jhana is a tool towards becoming increasingly awake. So I feel Jhana is a tool rather than enlightenment itself. I don't think too many would disagree with that last sentence.
The jhanas are repeatedly mentioned in the sutttas, suggesting that they are an important aspect of practice. And Right Concentration, a factor of the 8-fold path, is defined in terms of the jhanas. And yet some teachers say they are unimportant. What's your take on this?
The Jhanas are but signs / waypoints that we pass by in our meditative practice. They are merely indicators of our progress along the way, just as the floor indicators in a lift telling you which floor it is. So as you make progress, you will know far you've come and how far you've yet to go. Nothing more.
"Natthi jhanam apannassa panna natthi ajhayato yamhi jhananca panna ca sa ve nibbanasantike."
Translations:
Thanissaro
There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding.
Brahmavamso, Ajahn
"There is no jhana without wisdom There is no wisdom without jhana But for one with both jhana and wisdom They are in the presence of Nibbana"
Rajnish (plagiarized from Bryom, Thomas)
"If you are not wise, How can you steady the mind? If you cannot quieten yourself, What will you ever learn? How will you become free?
The importance of the jhanas in the Buddhist path can readily be gauged from the frequency with which they are mentioned throughout the suttas. The jhanas figure prominently both in the Buddha's own experience and in his exhortation to disciples. In his childhood, while attending an annual plowing festival, the future Buddha spontaneously entered the first jhana. It was the memory of this childhood incident, many years later after his futile pursuit of austerities, that revealed to him the way to enlightenment during his period of deepest despondency (M.i, 246-47). After taking his seat beneath the Bodhi tree, the Buddha entered the four jhanas immediately before direction his mind to the threefold knowledge that issued in his enlightenment (M.i.247-49). Throughout his active career the four jhanas remained "his heavenly dwelling" (D.iii,220) to which he resorted in order to live happily here and now. His understanding of the corruption, purification and emergence in the jhanas and other meditative attainments is one of the Tathagata's ten powers which enable him to turn the matchless wheel of the Dhamma (M.i,70). Just before his passing away the Buddha entered the jhanas in direct and reverse order, and the passing away itself took place directly from the fourth jhana (D.ii,156).
The Buddha is constantly seen in the suttas encouraging his disciples to develop jhana. The four jhanas are invariably included in the complete course of training laid down for disciples.[1] They figure in the training as the discipline of higher consciousness (adhicittasikkha), right concentration (sammasamadhi) of the Noble Eightfold Path, and the faculty and power of concentration (samadhindriya, samadhibala). Though a vehicle of dry insight can be found, indications are that this path is not an easy one, lacking the aid of the powerful serenity available to the practitioner of jhana. The way of the jhana attainer seems by comparison smoother and more pleasurable (A.ii,150-52). The Buddha even refers to the four jhanas figuratively as a kind of Nibbana: he calls them immediately visible Nibbana, factorial Nibbana, Nibbana here and now (A.iv,453-54).
Comments
Dualistic vision sees that mind is apart from the imperment arisings.
This should be investigated. Mind is exactly the arisings, which in their true form is the unborn buddha mind not as a static lifeless thing but a dynamic interplay of empty energy.
But those are described in Mahamudra as aspects of the mind, not necessarily stages to attain.
But then again the formless/form jhanas are the result of letting go and less construction.
It is really only Dzogchen that goes beyond mind completely and doesn't place too much emphasis on aspects of mind. If an individual can abide in the natural state then they are completely enlightened. But generally the three vehicles become the path after a glimpse of the natural state. Thus depending on the individual jhana may be necessary and even essential.
Just like an alcoholic needs to renounce alcohol for progression and some people can drink without a problem. The first yana can be of major benefit and may even be a better yana then say Vajrayana. Whereas Vajrayana may be a better fit for other individuals with certain karmic dispositions.
Again its all relative to the individual. Lol it seems that's a catch phrase for myself lately.
According to the Mahamudra point of view and particularly the Zhentong view. But that is off topic and we must respect op.
On topic I would say realization of the nature of mind is essential whereas Jhana is a tool towards becoming increasingly awake. So I feel Jhana is a tool rather than enlightenment itself. I don't think too many would disagree with that last sentence.
MN 1.1.8. Salleka sutta
The Jhanas are but signs / waypoints that we pass by in our meditative practice.
They are merely indicators of our progress along the way, just as the floor indicators in a lift telling you which floor it is.
So as you make progress, you will know far you've come and how far you've yet to go. Nothing more.
"Natthi jhanam apannassa
panna natthi ajhayato
yamhi jhananca panna ca
sa ve nibbanasantike."
Translations:
Thanissaro
There's no jhana
for one with no discernment,
no discernment
for one with no jhana.
But one with both jhana
& discernment:
he's on the verge
of Unbinding.
Brahmavamso, Ajahn
"There is no jhana without wisdom
There is no wisdom without jhana
But for one with both jhana and wisdom
They are in the presence of Nibbana"
Rajnish (plagiarized from Bryom, Thomas)
"If you are not wise,
How can you steady the mind?
If you cannot quieten yourself,
What will you ever learn?
How will you become free?
http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/dhammapada372.htm
The Buddha is constantly seen in the suttas encouraging his disciples to develop jhana. The four jhanas are invariably included in the complete course of training laid down for disciples.[1] They figure in the training as the discipline of higher consciousness (adhicittasikkha), right concentration (sammasamadhi) of the Noble Eightfold Path, and the faculty and power of concentration (samadhindriya, samadhibala). Though a vehicle of dry insight can be found, indications are that this path is not an easy one, lacking the aid of the powerful serenity available to the practitioner of jhana. The way of the jhana attainer seems by comparison smoother and more pleasurable (A.ii,150-52). The Buddha even refers to the four jhanas figuratively as a kind of Nibbana: he calls them immediately visible Nibbana, factorial Nibbana, Nibbana here and now (A.iv,453-54).
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html#ch1.1