Born To Kill Preventable?

ThailandTom

I am not one to put threads in the wrong place and get a slap on the wrist, but I really could not work out where this should go, so sorry if it is in the wrong place.

I have seen a few episodes of 'Born To Kill' which are documentaries about the lives of serial killers, it debates if they were 'born to kill' or if it is due to their upbringing/experiences, or even a mixture of the two. I have two questions to put here.

-Firstly do you think that certain people do have a certain genetic makeup where they are wired in a way that directs them to become a serial killer? Is it totally chemical or what are your opinions on this?

-Secondly these people have obviously gotten to a point in their lives where they are obsessed with fantasies, they all have certain traits about their personality and things have happened to them. Do you think that Buddhism could stop a serial killer in their tracks? I am not talking about a person who has killed out of lust or a split moment of fury, these are people who think things through and their lives often revolve around the desire to kill. Could they focus on their thoughts as they arise and take them apart, finding compassion and stability, basically from meditation?

federica

ThailandTom said:

I am not one to put threads in the wrong place and get a slap on the wrist, but I really could not work out where this should go, so sorry if it is in the wrong place.

I'll try to figure something out..... don't worry 'bout it.....

-Firstly do yu think that certain people do have a certain genetic makeup where they are wired in a way that directs them to become a serial killer? Is it totally chemical or what are your opinions on this?

I can only make assumptions here, I have no hard and fast facts, but if it's 'genetic make-up' wouldn't that imply that their close relatives are also inclined that way?

I don't know of many documented facts with regard to killers following their 'father's footsteps'....although evidence exists of continuity with factors such as domestic abuse, and drinking.... I don't know if many domestic abusers take it outside the home and start being serial killers....

-Secondly these people have obviously gotten to a point in their lives where they are obsessed with fantasies, they all have certain traits about their personality and things have happened to them. Do you think that Buddhism could stop a serial killer in their tracks? I am not talking about a person who has killed out of lust or a split moment of fury, these are people who think things through and their lives often revolve around the desire to kill. Could they focus on their thoughts as they arise and take them apart, finding compassion and stability, basically from meditation?

It depends on their willingness, and if anything hits their 'lightbulb switch'.... Buddhism is not a destination, it's a path, and much as you can draw the map to the utmost accuracy, if they choose to step on it or not, is their option....

ThailandTom

@federica There are genes that one may carry but are dormant but can pass on to sibling which then become active, I have forgotten the technical terms for said genes. Also, I heard a psychologist on one of those episodes point out that many people are born with a flawed gene, however depending on the environmental factors of their upbringing can make the person go in any way of possible directions. They would still have a flawed aspect to their personality, but it would possibly not be as extreme as say serial killing.

As for meditation, I believe that the path is the truth and has been laid before us all by the Buddha to help us realise what suffering is and that there is an end to it. However, some of these people have gotten to a point according to psychologists where they are unable to feel compassion on any level, they do not relate any kind of feeling to human beings apart from them being a problem or an object to be used for their gain, whatever that may be. So could some people be too far gone to even embrace the path if it was explained to them one day by a wise teacher?

Deepankar

I waa wondering since is a born to kill and why not they kill themselves.

ThailandTom

Deepankar said:

I waa wondering since is a born to kill and why not they kill themselves.

Because they are often the most self-centred people you will ever meet... EVERYTHING is them them them. Which is also something I find interesting because Buddhism teaches to understand this sense of self identity we have, this illusion we build, and serial killers have a very very strong notion of this self.

Deepankar

2nd part -precisely the crucial teaching of the sutra for dharma talks about life of relationship of ourselves, relationship of ourselves with other beings, relationship with the environment and relationship with the cosmo etc. Otherwise, why the meed of buddha teachings 49years, must well just ask people to meditate and be stillness, let it be so forth.

Tosh

I saw a good documentary on the Warrior Gene; it's basically proven that many serial killers carry this gene and it's been recognised in a US court when a death sentence was commuted to life imprison when it was shown that the accused carried this gene.

I think it boils down to lack of free will. We are the products of our genetic inheritance and our experience (of which we have little or no control over). If we were born as a serial killer, if we had his/her genetic inheritance, if we had all their experiences, we would become serial killers.

I guess understanding this is a route to compassion for serial killers.

Deepankar

There was this prisoner waited to be hang and repented, meditated and peacefully and calmly walked up the hang rope, died pesceful, cremation with many relic of precious stone behind for his fily. His sister advice her to repent and walk the path of liberating bliss. So in this word, the gene becomes buddha gene, the immutable.

Deepankar

The damage done to the living by the serial killers physically, mentally and environmentally wad beyond words. And even if the serial killers attained supreme, he is driven by the compassionate vow to liberate those that he killed etc based on ripen condition, never leaving them behind suffering in the water drowning :thumbsup:

lobster

as a serial killer (mostly fish) I have a lot of karma to catch up on . . .
All to often we try and distance ourselves from others mal being. However compassion leads us back to our flaws and reminds us to encompass and be compassionate with victims, perpetuators and that most demonic manifestation (yes I am talking about me) . . . Ourselves . . .

BhikkhuJayasara

I personally believe that it is a matter of a huge number of factors including genetics, physical and mental defects,culture,environment, parenting, etc. I don't believe anyone is "born to kill", but causes and conditions (and the persons own choices) create the situation.

I dunno if anyone has seen the recent movie Looper.. but part of the story is about this kid who in the future grows up to be this amazingly "evil" big time bad guy and there is a fight as to whether the child should be killed etc. It's an interesting movie.

federica

If it's that futuristic and all fantasy, I would have submitted a plot-line that would have allowed for the possibility of re-engineering his metal state and thought-patterns....

BhikkhuJayasara

federica said:

If it's that futuristic and all fantasy, I would have submitted a plot-line that would have allowed for the possibility of re-engineering his metal state and thought-patterns....

Well it comes down to a certain timeline of events that create the "evil" adult and the main characters choice to do something pretty drastic to stop that possibility from happening and give the "good" path a chance.

karasti

Most serial offenders, killers, rapists, or whatever, do not even see people as people anymore. That is why they are able to do what they do. Compassion is something they lack inherently. Whether they can be taught it or not, I don't know. I would imagine on some level, it is possible, yes. However it is difficult to imagine. The amount of grime covering their Buddha nature is astounding, and I'm not sure if it's penetrable.

Many serial killers exhibit above normal intelligence. The same is true for mass murderers. Predatory, serial, sexual offenders tend to be the opposite. Sexual crimes are pretty typically a result of desire for control and a perceived problem that makes them undesirable to their preferred sexual partner type. I think as a society we have a really hard time dealing with outliers, whether they are outliers for a positive reason (ie overly intelligent) or for negative reasons (ie mentally unstable). It's not uncommon for people of higher intelligence to struggle mightily in one area or another.

Few serial offenders don't have things in their lives that were quite questionable. Very few of them came from nuclear or stable families. But they do also seem to be more likely to succumb to these horrible things than other people. Clearly not every person who is abused, ignored, or has drunk or drugged out parents turns into a serial killer. They are not solely a product of their environment but it is usually part of the equation. Same with genetics, parent and family influences etc.

I've studied serial offenders quite a lot. They were the topics of almost every college research paper I ever did, and I worked in a sex offender treatment program for a time. In what I have learned and seen, they are definitely wired differently, mentally. If they were to have grown up in a loving, stable, Buddhist household would they be different? I honestly don't know. Some of them perhaps. There are very normal, stable homes that produce "monsters" of people.

Of interesting note, one of the smartest serial killers to exist was Edmund Kemper, from California. His story is pretty fascinating from a psychological point of view.

Serial criminals tend to exhibit signs that are recognizable from an early age as concerning. However, our ability in the western world to help these people even if someone recognizes the signs, are severely limited.

Jeffrey

I think they are born with their genes due to karma. Hell is a hard place to get out of seeing as in their life they will just create even more negative karma. Pema Chodron says that cruelty comes because someone is afraid to face the feeling of their heart. I have no information on serial killers psychology, but I will remind of the difference between axis 1 disorders such as depression and axis 2 disorders around personality disorders.

This inescapability of hell is one reason we don't want to slide down the karma mountain because we could become this too.

ThailandTom

karasti said:

Most serial offenders, killers, rapists, or whatever, do not even see people as people anymore. That is why they are able to do what they do. Compassion is something they lack inherently. Whether they can be taught it or not, I don't know. I would imagine on some level, it is possible, yes. However it is difficult to imagine. The amount of grime covering their Buddha nature is astounding, and I'm not sure if it's penetrable.

Many serial killers exhibit above normal intelligence. The same is true for mass murderers. Predatory, serial, sexual offenders tend to be the opposite. Sexual crimes are pretty typically a result of desire for control and a perceived problem that makes them undesirable to their preferred sexual partner type. I think as a society we have a really hard time dealing with outliers, whether they are outliers for a positive reason (ie overly intelligent) or for negative reasons (ie mentally unstable). It's not uncommon for people of higher intelligence to struggle mightily in one area or another.

Few serial offenders don't have things in their lives that were quite questionable. Very few of them came from nuclear or stable families. But they do also seem to be more likely to succumb to these horrible things than other people. Clearly not every person who is abused, ignored, or has drunk or drugged out parents turns into a serial killer. They are not solely a product of their environment but it is usually part of the equation. Same with genetics, parent and family influences etc.

I've studied serial offenders quite a lot. They were the topics of almost every college research paper I ever did, and I worked in a sex offender treatment program for a time. In what I have learned and seen, they are definitely wired differently, mentally. If they were to have grown up in a loving, stable, Buddhist household would they be different? I honestly don't know. Some of them perhaps. There are very normal, stable homes that produce "monsters" of people.

Of interesting note, one of the smartest serial killers to exist was Edmund Kemper, from California. His story is pretty fascinating from a psychological point of view.

Serial criminals tend to exhibit signs that are recognizable from an early age as concerning. However, our ability in the western world to help these people even if someone recognizes the signs, are severely limited.

Thanks for the post and amazing information you have given, a lot of what you have said it pretty much my thoughts on this. I have done my own studying of serial offenders due to an interest and curiosity into their psychology, what makes them cross that line etc. I have seen that, as you said yourself, stable homes can even breed total monsters. One example is Richard Kuklinski better known as the 'Iceman'. his family background wasn't too bad at all, there have been serial killers who have been brought up with even more of a stable background, but his was really quite average as far as things go. He however goes against the grain for serial killer traits, he is not motivated sexually, he used a wide range of methods and doesn't have a specific person in mind who he targets, he simply is a or was a predator.

I also think as you seem to do that some of them may be able to learn compassion, but from what I have seen others are too far gone down their own path where they do not see people as people anymore, as I mentioned in my OP they are merely seen as objects for their own personal gain. So on that note I think the Buddhist path cannot help every human being, that is my opinion anyway.

caz

We are products of our Karma. This is why it good from a young age to know virtue and likewise practice it, when I was young I could be very unpleasant because I had strong self cherishing tendencies, Being introduced to Dharma at a young age helped me Iron these out.

Deepankar

Your research is based on deep doubt inside you from social interaction and theoretical exploration of serial killer mind frame and indirectly indoctrinated against you. Therefore you never would feel that buddhism teaching can resolve their mental err towards the extreme and highly intelligent personlity. You ought to do a research in buddhism yourself, having a deep insight unravel so that your doubt is answered and awesomically solved. Nonethelessly, the karmic if you would to handle amicably, nothing should worry you. With metta and may all be safe and peace.

ThailandTom

caz said:

We are products of our Karma. This is why it good from a young age to know virtue and likewise practice it, when I was young I could be very unpleasant because I had strong self cherishing tendencies, Being introduced to Dharma at a young age helped me Iron these out.

I honestly feel that I have one of these flawed genes myself, it is a long story and many things that would suggest so, but like you have pointed out @caz, the dharma along with a few others things has helped me to change.

I use to find things funny that nobody else would such as crippled people or just things that aren't funny as a kid, I was popular in school but then towards the end of school I kind of isolated myself away from social activity more and more. When I was maybe 15-16 me and a group of friends at the time were talking about random stuff and it somehow came about that I would be the most likely person to end up killing somebody. I couldn't really understand why they thought this as I was non-violent but they all seemed to agree.

My first change came when 2 friends bluntly told me at the age of 17 that I was very selfish and self-absorbed. At first I took this badly and even laughed at them saying things like "yea well we should all look out for number 1", but later I thought about it more and slowly things started to change. I soon came to find Buddhism and from there I have changed for the better. I myself can see how things could have gone down a way worse path. I am still seen as 'different' and so is my sister, but we both were popular and she still is very much so in fact. The only thing I can think of in my childhood is my dad leaving when I was 7, that seemed to hit me hard. But also that over time he has totally disconnected himself from me. If you have a loving dad and he dies, then that is not his choice, tragic yes but not his doing. My situation is where I had a loving dad who I had a close relationship with, but for some reason who has chosen to shun me totally now. I have dealt with that and gotten over it, a lot of that is thanks to Buddhism.

JohnG

Uhm . . . no. The medcal model of this theory was proven wrong several decades ago. Although there are some who are trying to revive it, it's been refused as evidence in the discover phase of the trial. Granted there are those who have killed, and yes the warrior gene exists, it's still come to the 'choice' the person makes. Nature vs. nurture has been around since humanity began to walk around outside the primordial ooze, but, again has not been considered a true reason for people becoming killers, warriors, cops, firefighters, or butlars. :coffee:

ThailandTom

I think there is a genetic side to a lot of a serial killers background and becoming, I believe that it is one of multiple factors that come together to create such a state of mind, just like with anything that comes into being, it needs certain factors to arise and I am pretty sure genetics has something to do with it personally.

JohnG

It's the nature vs nurture argument . And I agree totally Tom, I know of people who come from great families, and are now serving life in prison for murder and such. In the end, in my opinion, it's the persons choice to follow; we can try to diswade, but in the end, it's a personal choice that has to be made. For good or bad.

caz

ThailandTom said:

caz said:

We are products of our Karma. This is why it good from a young age to know virtue and likewise practice it, when I was young I could be very unpleasant because I had strong self cherishing tendencies, Being introduced to Dharma at a young age helped me Iron these out.

I honestly feel that I have one of these flawed genes myself, it is a long story and many things that would suggest so, but like you have pointed out @caz, the dharma along with a few others things has helped me to change.

I use to find things funny that nobody else would such as crippled people or just things that aren't funny as a kid, I was popular in school but then towards the end of school I kind of isolated myself away from social activity more and more. When I was maybe 15-16 me and a group of friends at the time were talking about random stuff and it somehow came about that I would be the most likely person to end up killing somebody. I couldn't really understand why they thought this as I was non-violent but they all seemed to agree.

My first change came when 2 friends bluntly told me at the age of 17 that I was very selfish and self-absorbed. At first I took this badly and even laughed at them saying things like "yea well we should all look out for number 1", but later I thought about it more and slowly things started to change. I soon came to find Buddhism and from there I have changed for the better. I myself can see how things could have gone down a way worse path. I am still seen as 'different' and so is my sister, but we both were popular and she still is very much so in fact. The only thing I can think of in my childhood is my dad leaving when I was 7, that seemed to hit me hard. But also that over time he has totally disconnected himself from me. If you have a loving dad and he dies, then that is not his choice, tragic yes but not his doing. My situation is where I had a loving dad who I had a close relationship with, but for some reason who has chosen to shun me totally now. I have dealt with that and gotten over it, a lot of that is thanks to Buddhism.

With practising Dharma continuously the state of our mind next year will be better then the last, Enlightenment is a work in progress we've been collecting many Karmic tendencies in our migrations through Samsara so it can take a while to correct them, Just having the intention to be a better person is a good start.