Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Examples: Monday, today, last week, Mar 26, 3/26/04
Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.

The 'feeling' of the ignorant mind is the same as the enlightened mind?

zenmystezenmyste Veteran
edited January 2013 in General Banter
Buddhism is about becoming enlightened and awaking from ignorance...

But wouldnt the 'Feeling' of the enlightenment man be the same as the feeling of the ignorant man?

Is the whole point not to just overcome suffering? Therefore whatever works for you - works for you!!

Heres an example;

There are two friends, who both have cancer - and have only got 4 weeks to live!
one 'became' enlightened to the 'truth'
And found out he was going to die!

His friend , never awakened to 'his' truth and helped his friend all the way till the end! They both laughed , shared old stories and helped one another !

They both eventually died - 'happy'

My point is; the friend was ignorant to his truth but his ignorance didnt make a difference! I believe you can still attain happiness! If anything 'his' ignorance could have 'helped' him rather than 'knowing' - some people find the truth to hard to handle and cannot handle it!

Also , where are the 'facts' that the ignorant world is not in fact the real world?

Have you ever had a dream that felt so real?
How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world!

I guess it really does only come down to 'opinions'
For there are no solid facts about what is reality and what is not!
«1

Comments

  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    edited January 2013
    If you'd rather be a pig, ignorant, filthy, rooting around in the muck for food, with no concept of the muddy sty you live in, or how to cross the river to freedom.
    Or you could be one whose eyes are open, a human who walks upright, sees the path, builds a raft, crosses the river to freedom.

    Arguably, the pig may be happier than the human. But he's going to be made into bacon pretty soon.
    ThailandTom
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    edited January 2013

    If you'd rather be a pig, ignorant, filthy, rooting around in the muck for food, with no concept of the muddy sty you live in, or how to cross the river to freedom.
    Or you could be one whose eyes are open, a human who walks upright, sees the path, builds a raft, crosses the river to freedom.

    Arguably, the pig may be happier than the human. But he's going to be made into bacon pretty soon.

    We're all gonna die kid, its just the case of when , not how!
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    edited January 2013
    Also, you talk about rooting around in the mud looking for food with no concept of the mud we live in ... Mud is mud - get a nice shower and 'cook' your 'own' food instead of 'rooting' for some !

    Then you talk about how to cross the river to freedom ... - just swim across - no mystery!

    The ignorant man can still 'learn' how ti swim!

    The ignorant man can still walk upright, and see the path is in front of him and thats all that matters!

    Then you say the pig may be 'happier'
    Well, good enough for me !

    Is it not 'happiness' we are all seeking?
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    edited January 2013
    Here's a nice story from Ajahn Brahm that illustrates the same thing. Both worm and deva are happy.

    image
    Ajahn Brahm
    Two monks had been close friends all their life. After they died, one was reborn a deva (a heavenly being) in a beautiful heaven world, while his friend was reborn as a worm in a pile of dung.

    The deva soon began to miss his old friend and wondered where he'd been reborn. He couldn't find his friend anywhere in his own heaven world, so he looked in all hte other heaven realms too. His friend wasn't there. Using his heavenly powers, the deva searched the world of human beings but couldn't find his friend there either. Surely, he thought, his friend wouldn't have taken rebirth in the animal realm, but he checked there just in case. Still there was no sign of his friend from the previous life. So, next, the deva searched the world of what we call the 'creepy-crawlies' and, to his great surprise, there he found his friend reborn as a worm in a disgusting pile of stinking dung!

    The bonds of friendship are so strong that they often outlast death. The deva felt he had to rescue his old companion from such an unfortunate rebirth, no matter what karma had let to it.

    So the deva appeared in front of the foul pile of dung and called out, 'Hey, worm! do you remember me? We are monks together in our past life and you were my best friend. Whereas I've been reborn in a most delightful heaven world, you've been reborn in this revolting pile of cow-shit. Don't be worried, though, becuase i can take you to heaven with me. Come on, old friend!'

    'Hang on a moment!' said the worm, 'What's so great about this "heaven world" you are twittering on about? I'm very happy here with my fragnant, delicious pile of delectable dung, thank you very much.'

    'You don't understand,' said the deva, and he gave the worm a brilliant description of the delights and pleasures of heaven.

    'Is there any dung up there, then?' asked the worm, getting to the point.

    'Of course not!' sniffed the deva.

    'Then I aint going!' replied the worm firmly. 'Nick off!' And the worm burrowed into the centre of the dung pile.

    The deva thought that if only the worm could see heaven for himself, then he would understand. So the deva held his nose and thrust his soft hand into the repulsive pile of dung, searching for the worm. He found him and began to pull him out.

    'Hey! Leave me alone!' screamed the worm. 'Help! May Day! I'm being worm-napped!' And the little slippery worm wriggled and squirmed till he got free, then he dived back into the dung pile to hide.

    The kind deva plunged his fingers into the stinking faces again, found the worm and tried once more to pull him out. The deva almost got the worm out, but because the worm was smeared with slimey filth and did not want to go he escaped a second time and hid even deeper in the dung pile. One hundred and eight times the deva tried to lead the poor worm out from his miserable dung pile, but the worm was so attached to his lovely pile of dung that he always wriggled back!

    So, eventually the deva had to go back up to heaven and leave the foolish worm to his 'lovely pile of dung'.
    Invincible_summer
  • zenmyste said:



    Is it not 'happiness' we are all seeking?

    In my view, no, it is not happiness we are all seeking. It is equanimity.
    With equanimity you can roll with the punches.
    Seeking happiness, youre bound to find some. But what happens when you don't find it and find disappointment and sadness instead? Your hopes are dashed.
    And insight. With insight you can penetrate your world with understanding. Start to see your world more clearly. You may not get any answers, but you will have fewer questions.
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    But wouldnt the 'Feeling' of the enlightenment man be the same as the feeling of the ignorant man?
    No!
    That, pardon my candour, is ignorance. The experience of the enlightened can not be compared because it is incomparable. We only know of the world of dreams, which is like the real world but is the matrix, not the real. It is the shadow, not the real. You may be content with that . . . but is it real . . .

    Morpheus: I imagine that right now, you're feeling a bit like Alice. Hmm? Tumbling down the rabbit hole?
    Neo: You could say that.
    Morpheus: I see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, that's not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?
    Neo: No.
    Morpheus: Why not?
    Neo: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.
    Morpheus: I know *exactly* what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?
    Neo: The Matrix.
    Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?
    Neo: Yes.
    Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
    Neo: What truth?
    Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.
  • Explaining your point in terms of having cancer isn't really too relevant IMO, I see what you are trying to say though. However, the fundamental ignorance that your average human being does not prevent them from suffering, it hides or distorts the source of it and can make it worse. If you reveal your ignorance you realise how suffering operates and then you can start to learn how to deal with it rather than it bombarding you blindly.
    Cinorjer
  • lobster said:

    But wouldnt the 'Feeling' of the enlightenment man be the same as the feeling of the ignorant man?
    No!
    That, pardon my candour, is ignorance. The experience of the enlightened can not be compared because it is incomparable. We only know of the world of dreams, which is like the real world but is the matrix, not the real. It is the shadow, not the real. You may be content with that . . . but is it real . . .

    Morpheus: I imagine that right now, you're feeling a bit like Alice. Hmm? Tumbling down the rabbit hole?
    Neo: You could say that.
    Morpheus: I see it in your eyes. You have the look of a man who accepts what he sees because he is expecting to wake up. Ironically, that's not far from the truth. Do you believe in fate, Neo?
    Neo: No.
    Morpheus: Why not?
    Neo: Because I don't like the idea that I'm not in control of my life.
    Morpheus: I know *exactly* what you mean. Let me tell you why you're here. You're here because you know something. What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad. It is this feeling that has brought you to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?
    Neo: The Matrix.
    Morpheus: Do you want to know what it is?
    Neo: Yes.
    Morpheus: The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
    Neo: What truth?
    Morpheus: That you are a slave, Neo. Like everyone else you were born into bondage. Into a prison that you cannot taste or see or touch. A prison for your mind.


    One of my favourite movies... However, i believe that 'this' thing called the matrix (the thing we see everywhere, when we go to work, pay our taxes, go to church etc etc) all this isnt the 'matrix' - all this 'is' reality. All this 'is' enlightenment!

    And its only because people dont like that mundane fact that they want to 'believe' there is something 'else'

    They call 'this world' delusion - matrix , when 'really' i dont believe it is!

    I believe it 'is' real! And we have to accept it if we want to attain peace!

    Believing that there is ' something ' to attain like truth ir enlightenment can only hinder living our full potential NOW!

    This NOW is all there is! (For me anyway)
    Jeffrey
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Does a mind with greed, ignorance, hate have the same feelings of a mind without those things? I don't see how that would be possible. :)
    ThailandTom
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    edited January 2013
    seeker242 said:

    Does a mind with greed, ignorance, hate have the same feelings of a mind without those things? I don't see how that would be possible. :)

    Why have you brought up greed and hate ? I didnt mention these things!

    I only mean a man living in what all you lot call ignorance doesnt 'nescessarily' mean he cannot live a 'happy ad content' life!

    So its depends what everyone wants doesnt it..

    Ive always stated on here that i know 'alot' of people who are 'not' buddhist or any other religion for that matter and they are perfectly 'happy'' and content!

    They dont 'need' any religion or philosophy !

    But when i tell people this they alwys say "well they are living in ignorance"

    But who says they are living in ignorance? And even if they are , if theyre happy and not 'harming' anyone then whats the matter with that?
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited January 2013
    happiness and suffering go together. if there was only happiness, then happiness would not have that meaning as there is - when there is suffering to contrast it with. but the thing is - the removal of ignorance is needed to end the suffering once and for ever. it can be the case that say there are people, who are born in a good family, got good parents who arranged their good education, so they got good job to earn a good salary, to get married to a good natured girl, to have good natured children, worked to give their children good education, seeing their children getting good jobs and getting settled and they reach old age and they live happily with contentment and die - nothing bad happened to them, but the thing is after they die, the next rebirth can be a bad one - because law of karma exists, so their good karma rewards may have either ended in their this life or may be in the coming lifes, but it will end and then the effects of bad karma will start to show in the coming lifes, which will make them suffer. So the thing is when there is a chance to end the suffering once and for ever in this human birth, why not try it - even if we do not succeed, then also the spiritual journey can continue in the coming lifes, till we finally end our suffering once and for ever.
  • zenmystezenmyste Veteran
    edited January 2013
    Im sorry, i just cant grasp it to be honest!

    I dont believe that its ignorance that cause our suffering! I do however believe that 'attachment' causes suffering! But i just dont think ignorance causes suffering!

    Like i said i 'know' people who, (according to buddhism) are living in ignorance but they are not 'suffering' like buddhism states!

    So thats why i cannot grasp it because ive whitnessed otherwise!
  • nothing bad happened to them, but the thing is after they die, the next rebirth can be a bad one - because law of karma exists, so their good karma rewards may have either ended in their this life or may be in the coming lifes, but it will end and then the effects of bad karma will start to show in the coming lifes, which will make them suffer. So the thing is when there is a chance to end the suffering once and for ever in this human birth, why not try it - even if we do not succeed, then also the spiritual journey can continue in the coming lifes, till we finally end our suffering once and for ever.


    Lol , im sorry again, but this is where me and buddhism seperate!

    I dont believe in rebirth etc etc !

    Im only interested in how to live my life NOW!
  • IMO: The average lay practitioners' practice should simply be geared to change how they relate to the world (phenomena), not really concerned with changing themselves (trying to become enlightened, etc..) or changing the world (phenomena) around them. They are not striving for something, but rather practicing to let go of the craving & clinging that gives rise to dukkha. At least, that's what the core teaching (4NT) are pointing to.
    Jason
  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    They call 'this world' delusion - matrix , when 'really' i dont believe it is!
    Do they? Pardon my candour once again . . . But that is ignorance.
    Basically you want to spend your life in the Now. Which is one of the experiences that Buddhism helps with. I know you can not do it as completely and as satisfyingly as an experienced practitioner. If you feel you can.
    Great.
    Live long and prosper. :wave:
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    zenmyste said:

    Buddhism is about becoming enlightened and awaking from ignorance...

    But wouldnt the 'Feeling' of the enlightenment man be the same as the feeling of the ignorant man?

    Is the whole point not to just overcome suffering? Therefore whatever works for you - works for you!!

    Heres an example;

    There are two friends, who both have cancer - and have only got 4 weeks to live!
    one 'became' enlightened to the 'truth'
    And found out he was going to die!

    His friend , never awakened to 'his' truth and helped his friend all the way till the end! They both laughed , shared old stories and helped one another !

    They both eventually died - 'happy'

    My point is; the friend was ignorant to his truth but his ignorance didnt make a difference! I believe you can still attain happiness! If anything 'his' ignorance could have 'helped' him rather than 'knowing' - some people find the truth to hard to handle and cannot handle it!

    Also , where are the 'facts' that the ignorant world is not in fact the real world?

    Have you ever had a dream that felt so real?
    How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world!

    I guess it really does only come down to 'opinions'
    For there are no solid facts about what is reality and what is not!

    First, ignorance is in the eyes of the beholder, to some extent.

    But more important, I'm a bit bothered by an implication that only those who are more intellectual can achieve enlightenment.

  • Therefore, isnt 'everything' in the eyes of the beholder? Including what enlightenment is! Practice is! What causes suffering ! And how to avoid it!

    All these are in the eyes of the beholder???
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    zenmyste said:

    Therefore, isnt 'everything' in the eyes of the beholder? Including what enlightenment is! Practice is! What causes suffering ! And how to avoid it!

    All these are in the eyes of the beholder???

    No, I don't think so. I think you're mixing facts and degrees.

    Whether there is or is not such a thing as enlightenment is a factual thing.

    Whether someone is ignorant or not is a judgment based on degrees. Take the last election. I know quite a few Republicans who honestly think Barack Obama is ignorant. And I know quite a few Democrats who honestly thought that virtually all the Republican candidates in the primaries were ignorant. Both sides were wrong.

    I've never known a person who thinks they are ignorant. It's always someone else.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited January 2013
    Knowing you are ill is not enlightenment. Enlightenment has to do with becoming a Buddha.

    Why do you think they would have happy deaths? That's an oxymoron, death is not a happy time.

    Ignorance means avoidance of reality. You don't question the fundamental assumptions such as meaning of time that cause prapancha and sankhara. Avidya is the word for ignorance. We are attached to our cacoon.
  • Is enlightenment just a buddhist concept or an actual state?????

  • lobsterlobster Crusty Veteran
    edited January 2013
    It is an actual experience. Aspects and reports exist in all mystical traditions. Some of us have resided there. Does the experience of living for the moment compare?
    No.

    Kenshō
  • JasonJason God Emperor Arrakis Moderator
    edited January 2013
    Just for reference, here's a somewhat related Dhamma talk that I personally think's worthy of a listen if anyone's interested: The Pursuit of True Happiness.
  • JeffreyJeffrey Veteran
    edited January 2013
    Enlightenment is not a state, rather it means that the wrong views and avoidance of the mind we already have have been overcome.

    I think you are a little confused by the concept that 'we are already enlightened'. We do have Buddhanature but there is a black cloud covering the sun. The Lam Rim is about clearing away that cloud to reveal the sun of enlightenment. Enlightenment is not a state like a mood. It is the nature of mind when the clouds blow away. Tantra is about realizing the cloud is 'made of' the sun and opening (the opposite of avidya).

    We don't 'find' enlightenment we 'discover'. Present tense versus past.
    lobster
  • misecmisc1misecmisc1 I am a Hindu India Veteran
    edited January 2013
    zenmyste said:

    Im sorry, i just cant grasp it to be honest!

    I dont believe that its ignorance that cause our suffering! I do however believe that 'attachment' causes suffering! But i just dont think ignorance causes suffering!

    Like i said i 'know' people who, (according to buddhism) are living in ignorance but they are not 'suffering' like buddhism states!

    So thats why i cannot grasp it because ive whitnessed otherwise!

    zenmyste said:

    nothing bad happened to them, but the thing is after they die, the next rebirth can be a bad one - because law of karma exists, so their good karma rewards may have either ended in their this life or may be in the coming lifes, but it will end and then the effects of bad karma will start to show in the coming lifes, which will make them suffer. So the thing is when there is a chance to end the suffering once and for ever in this human birth, why not try it - even if we do not succeed, then also the spiritual journey can continue in the coming lifes, till we finally end our suffering once and for ever.


    Lol , im sorry again, but this is where me and buddhism seperate!

    I dont believe in rebirth etc etc !

    Im only interested in how to live my life NOW!
    @zenmyste: ok, you understand that attachment causes suffering. Now tell me, as per you, what causes attachment? Also, this will tell you the slight difference of what 'ignorance' means in spirituality and what 'ignorance' means in conventional world - there is a slight difference here based on context.

  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    The "ignorant mind" still sees subject and object, self and other. The "enlightened mind" has deeply internalized the fact that, ultimately, there are no such things.
  • The "ignorant mind" still sees subject and object, self and other. The "enlightened mind" has deeply internalized the fact that, ultimately, there are no such things.

    Whilst we all have a heart beat and living on earth - i believe there 'are' such things!

    Im starting to believe that we are all born enlightened and see things as they really are -- then we somehow forget and become spiritual and start seeking and this causes us to not see things as they really are -- then 'if' we're lucky some of us finally see things again as they really are!
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    zenmyste said:

    seeker242 said:

    Does a mind with greed, ignorance, hate have the same feelings of a mind without those things? I don't see how that would be possible. :)

    Why have you brought up greed and hate ? I didnt mention these things!

    I only mean a man living in what all you lot call ignorance doesnt 'nescessarily' mean he cannot live a 'happy ad content' life!

    So its depends what everyone wants doesnt it..

    Ive always stated on here that i know 'alot' of people who are 'not' buddhist or any other religion for that matter and they are perfectly 'happy'' and content!

    They dont 'need' any religion or philosophy !

    But when i tell people this they alwys say "well they are living in ignorance"

    But who says they are living in ignorance? And even if they are , if theyre happy and not 'harming' anyone then whats the matter with that?
    I brought up greed and hate because those are the differences between an unenlightened mind and an enlightened one. So just by saying "unenlightened mind", you are mentioning those things. Just because someone is currently happy, does not mean they are not ignorant.

  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    seeker242 said:


    I brought up greed and hate because those are the differences between an unenlightened mind and an enlightened one. So just by saying "unenlightened mind", you are mentioning those things. Just because someone is currently happy, does not mean they are not ignorant.

    Exactly! Just like the happy worm in the pile of dung.
    Ignorance.
  • vinlyn said:

    zenmyste said:

    Buddhism is about becoming enlightened and awaking from ignorance...


    I guess it really does only come down to 'opinions'
    For there are no solid facts about what is reality and what is not!

    First, ignorance is in the eyes of the beholder, to some extent.

    But more important, I'm a bit bothered by an implication that only those who are more intellectual can achieve enlightenment.

    Of course there are solid facts about what is real and what is not. If you think there are none you won't bother to find out what they are so I suggest at least keeping an open mind.

    I can see how Buddhism might seem to require us to be more 'intellectual' than average. Especially when some people like me rabbit on about philosophy all the time. But it would not be necessary to be able to read or write, so 'intellectual' here would have a quite limited meaning. I suppose being thick as a plank wouldn't help. On the other hand, perhaps it would. Seems to me the intellect can be a help or a hindrance.

    Ones own ignorance is not in the eye of the beholder, since it is not seen at all while one is suffering from it, and because of it. This would be the problem.
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    zenmyste said:

    seeker242 said:

    Does a mind with greed, ignorance, hate have the same feelings of a mind without those things? I don't see how that would be possible. :)

    Why have you brought up greed and hate ? I didnt mention these things!

    I only mean a man living in what all you lot call ignorance doesnt 'nescessarily' mean he cannot live a 'happy ad content' life!

    So its depends what everyone wants doesnt it..

    Ive always stated on here that i know 'alot' of people who are 'not' buddhist or any other religion for that matter and they are perfectly 'happy'' and content!

    They dont 'need' any religion or philosophy !

    But when i tell people this they alwys say "well they are living in ignorance"

    But who says they are living in ignorance? And even if they are , if theyre happy and not 'harming' anyone then whats the matter with that?
    I brought up greed and hate because those are the differences between an unenlightened mind and an enlightened one. So just by saying "unenlightened mind", you are mentioning those things. Just because someone is currently happy, does not mean they are not ignorant.

    I think you're missing Zenmyste's point. There's no apparent difference between Buddhist practitioners and the kind of people Zenmyte mentions here. Do you know, for instance, any Buddhist practitioners who are "enlightened" and incapable of feeling/expressing greed or hate? No, right?
  • Invincible_summerInvincible_summer Heavy Metal Dhamma We(s)t coast, Canada Veteran
    zenmyste said:

    The "ignorant mind" still sees subject and object, self and other. The "enlightened mind" has deeply internalized the fact that, ultimately, there are no such things.

    Whilst we all have a heart beat and living on earth - i believe there 'are' such things!

    Im starting to believe that we are all born enlightened and see things as they really are -- then we somehow forget and become spiritual and start seeking and this causes us to not see things as they really are -- then 'if' we're lucky some of us finally see things again as they really are!
    What are "things as they really are" according to your worldview?
  • zenmyste said:

    The "ignorant mind" still sees subject and object, self and other. The "enlightened mind" has deeply internalized the fact that, ultimately, there are no such things.

    Whilst we all have a heart beat and living on earth - i believe there 'are' such things!

    Im starting to believe that we are all born enlightened and see things as they really are -- then we somehow forget and become spiritual and start seeking and this causes us to not see things as they really are -- then 'if' we're lucky some of us finally see things again as they really are!
    What are "things as they really are" according to your worldview?
    The things you buddhists call illusion and ignorance.

    Im basically refering to 'everything' as it is in this very moment!

    I believe the real reality is what you all think is illusion!

    All 'this' is 'it' - nothing more - nothing mystical - nothing hidden!
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    zenmyste said:


    All 'this' is 'it' - nothing more - nothing mystical - nothing hidden!

    Except when you've been meditating for years and finally penetrate to a deeper or more subtle level of reality and go OH WOW WOW, HOW COME I DIDN'T SEE THAT BEFORE!?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!! WOOOO!
    Invincible_summer
  • FullCircleFullCircle Explorer
    edited January 2013
    zenmyste said:


    All 'this' is 'it' - nothing more - nothing mystical - nothing hidden!

    "Except when you've been meditating for years and finally penetrate to a deeper or more subtle level of reality and go OH WOW WOW, HOW COME I DIDN'T SEE THAT BEFORE!?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!! WOOOO! "

    Exactly and theres absolutely no words that will explain that to anyone at all .. sometimes giving up is the first requirement.. surrender. quit. Admit you know nothing instead of thinking you know everything. Zenmyste maybe you'd like this guy Robert Rohr- check him out on youtube.. Christian guy who explains how Jesus was pointing to the same thing as Buddha and how the message has gotten completely lost over the years and is now a belief system of the masses... but originally- same thing!
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    edited January 2013
    Nevermind said:



    I brought up greed and hate because those are the differences between an unenlightened mind and an enlightened one. So just by saying "unenlightened mind", you are mentioning those things. Just because someone is currently happy, does not mean they are not ignorant.


    I think you're missing Zenmyste's point. There's no apparent difference between Buddhist practitioners and the kind of people Zenmyte mentions here.

    I don't think I'm missing the point. It was specifically said "unenlightened" and "enlightened" people. Enlightened people, by definition, have abandoned greed and hate. Unenlightened people, by definition, haven't. So there is certainly a difference between the two I would say. I don't see how there couldn't be.
    Do you know, for instance, any Buddhist practitioners who are "enlightened" and incapable of feeling/expressing greed or hate? No, right?
    I would not unequivocally answer no to that. I would answer with "possibly". :)
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    seeker242 said:

    Nevermind said:



    I brought up greed and hate because those are the differences between an unenlightened mind and an enlightened one. So just by saying "unenlightened mind", you are mentioning those things. Just because someone is currently happy, does not mean they are not ignorant.


    I think you're missing Zenmyste's point. There's no apparent difference between Buddhist practitioners and the kind of people Zenmyte mentions here.
    I don't think I'm missing the point. It was specifically said "unenlightened" and "enlightened" people. Enlightened people, by definition, have abandoned greed and hate. Unenlightened people, by definition, haven't. So there is certainly a difference between the two I would say. I don't see how there couldn't be.
    Do you know, for instance, any Buddhist practitioners who are "enlightened" and incapable of feeling/expressing greed or hate? No, right?
    I would not unequivocally answer no to that. I would answer with "possibly". :)

    Which means that you don't know, so ...
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran

    zenmyste said:


    All 'this' is 'it' - nothing more - nothing mystical - nothing hidden!

    Except when you've been meditating for years and finally penetrate to a deeper or more subtle level of reality and go OH WOW WOW, HOW COME I DIDN'T SEE THAT BEFORE!?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!! WOOOO!
    Seeing things that are not there is called delusion.
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    Nevermind said:


    Seeing things that are not there is called delusion.

    Are you saying that deep insight into anicca, anatta, or dukkha, is a delusion?
    It's kinda the foundation of Buddhism.
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran

    Nevermind said:


    Seeing things that are not there is called delusion.

    Are you saying that deep insight into anicca, anatta, or dukkha, is a delusion?
    It's kinda the foundation of Buddhism.
    No, I'm saying that seeing things that are not there is called delusion.
  • BhanteLuckyBhanteLucky Alternative lifestyle person in the South Island of New Zealand New Zealand Veteran
    edited January 2013
    Nevermind said:

    Nevermind said:


    Seeing things that are not there is called delusion.

    Are you saying that deep insight into anicca, anatta, or dukkha, is a delusion?
    It's kinda the foundation of Buddhism.
    No, I'm saying that seeing things that are not there is called delusion.
    Oh that's okay then, for a minute there I was worried that you thought the meditative insights of Buddhist masters for over two thousand years were delusions.:thumbsup:
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Insights can be quite wrong or of very little real value, don't get me wrong.
  • zenmyste said:

    The "ignorant mind" still sees subject and object, self and other. The "enlightened mind" has deeply internalized the fact that, ultimately, there are no such things.

    Whilst we all have a heart beat and living on earth - i believe there 'are' such things!

    Im starting to believe that we are all born enlightened and see things as they really are -- then we somehow forget and become spiritual and start seeking and this causes us to not see things as they really are -- then 'if' we're lucky some of us finally see things again as they really are!
    What are "things as they really are" according to your worldview?
    Nevermind said:

    seeker242 said:

    zenmyste said:

    seeker242 said:

    Does a mind with greed, ignorance, hate have the same feelings of a mind without those things? I don't see how that would be possible. :)

    Why have you brought up greed and hate ? I didnt mention these things!

    I only mean a man living in what all you lot call ignorance doesnt 'nescessarily' mean he cannot live a 'happy ad content' life!

    So its depends what everyone wants doesnt it..

    Ive always stated on here that i know 'alot' of people who are 'not' buddhist or any other religion for that matter and they are perfectly 'happy'' and content!

    They dont 'need' any religion or philosophy !

    But when i tell people this they alwys say "well they are living in ignorance"

    But who says they are living in ignorance? And even if they are , if theyre happy and not 'harming' anyone then whats the matter with that?
    I brought up greed and hate because those are the differences between an unenlightened mind and an enlightened one. So just by saying "unenlightened mind", you are mentioning those things. Just because someone is currently happy, does not mean they are not ignorant.

    I think you're missing Zenmyste's point. There's no apparent difference between Buddhist practitioners and the kind of people Zenmyte mentions here. Do you know, for instance, any Buddhist practitioners who are "enlightened" and incapable of feeling/expressing greed or hate? No, right?
    Yes. I do. I expect most of us do. Well, 'incapable' is a strong word. Let's say they would never let such feelings interfere with their behaviour or equinimity.

    I agree though, that people are often happy to be (in the Buddhist sense) ignorant. Why not? They would have no idea that there is another option, and as long as everything is going well life is full and rewarding. That there is another state that is much more full and rewarding is not obvious.


  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    Nevermind said:

    seeker242 said:

    Nevermind said:



    I brought up greed and hate because those are the differences between an unenlightened mind and an enlightened one. So just by saying "unenlightened mind", you are mentioning those things. Just because someone is currently happy, does not mean they are not ignorant.


    I think you're missing Zenmyste's point. There's no apparent difference between Buddhist practitioners and the kind of people Zenmyte mentions here.
    I don't think I'm missing the point. It was specifically said "unenlightened" and "enlightened" people. Enlightened people, by definition, have abandoned greed and hate. Unenlightened people, by definition, haven't. So there is certainly a difference between the two I would say. I don't see how there couldn't be.
    Do you know, for instance, any Buddhist practitioners who are "enlightened" and incapable of feeling/expressing greed or hate? No, right?
    I would not unequivocally answer no to that. I would answer with "possibly". :)

    Which means that you don't know, so ...

    I know there is a difference between being enlightened and not enlightened.

    :)
    David
  • seeker242 said:

    Nevermind said:

    seeker242 said:

    Nevermind said:



    I brought up greed and hate because those are the differences between an unenlightened mind and an enlightened one. So just by saying "unenlightened mind", you are mentioning those things. Just because someone is currently happy, does not mean they are not ignorant.


    I think you're missing Zenmyste's point. There's no apparent difference between Buddhist practitioners and the kind of people Zenmyte mentions here.
    I don't think I'm missing the point. It was specifically said "unenlightened" and "enlightened" people. Enlightened people, by definition, have abandoned greed and hate. Unenlightened people, by definition, haven't. So there is certainly a difference between the two I would say. I don't see how there couldn't be.
    Do you know, for instance, any Buddhist practitioners who are "enlightened" and incapable of feeling/expressing greed or hate? No, right?
    I would not unequivocally answer no to that. I would answer with "possibly". :)
    Which means that you don't know, so ...

    I know there is a difference between being enlightened and not enlightened.

    :)

    How ??? Are you enlightened??
  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    Florian said:

    zenmyste said:

    The "ignorant mind" still sees subject and object, self and other. The "enlightened mind" has deeply internalized the fact that, ultimately, there are no such things.

    Whilst we all have a heart beat and living on earth - i believe there 'are' such things!

    Im starting to believe that we are all born enlightened and see things as they really are -- then we somehow forget and become spiritual and start seeking and this causes us to not see things as they really are -- then 'if' we're lucky some of us finally see things again as they really are!
    What are "things as they really are" according to your worldview?
    Nevermind said:

    seeker242 said:

    zenmyste said:

    seeker242 said:

    Does a mind with greed, ignorance, hate have the same feelings of a mind without those things? I don't see how that would be possible. :)

    Why have you brought up greed and hate ? I didnt mention these things!

    I only mean a man living in what all you lot call ignorance doesnt 'nescessarily' mean he cannot live a 'happy ad content' life!

    So its depends what everyone wants doesnt it..

    Ive always stated on here that i know 'alot' of people who are 'not' buddhist or any other religion for that matter and they are perfectly 'happy'' and content!

    They dont 'need' any religion or philosophy !

    But when i tell people this they alwys say "well they are living in ignorance"

    But who says they are living in ignorance? And even if they are , if theyre happy and not 'harming' anyone then whats the matter with that?
    I brought up greed and hate because those are the differences between an unenlightened mind and an enlightened one. So just by saying "unenlightened mind", you are mentioning those things. Just because someone is currently happy, does not mean they are not ignorant.

    I think you're missing Zenmyste's point. There's no apparent difference between Buddhist practitioners and the kind of people Zenmyte mentions here. Do you know, for instance, any Buddhist practitioners who are "enlightened" and incapable of feeling/expressing greed or hate? No, right?
    Yes. I do. I expect most of us do. Well, 'incapable' is a strong word. Let's say they would never let such feelings interfere with their behaviour or equinimity.
    Is incapable a strong word or is enlightenment a weak one? :o
  • ArthurbodhiArthurbodhi Mars Veteran
    edited January 2013
    What we know is that meditation, cause a real change in how our brain works, according to new investigations.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation

    So we will agree that mind of people that practice meditation is different in some grade to people that not meditate.

    If mind work different the feelings that this produce would be different also.

    So, interpolating that, we can assume that a enlightened mind that is caused for extensive meditation practice is radically different to a non enlightened mind.

    All the other is metaphysical guessing that you could or not be agree with. :)
  • seeker242seeker242 Zen Florida, USA Veteran
    zenmyste said:

    seeker242 said:

    Nevermind said:

    seeker242 said:

    Nevermind said:



    I brought up greed and hate because those are the differences between an unenlightened mind and an enlightened one. So just by saying "unenlightened mind", you are mentioning those things. Just because someone is currently happy, does not mean they are not ignorant.


    I think you're missing Zenmyste's point. There's no apparent difference between Buddhist practitioners and the kind of people Zenmyte mentions here.
    I don't think I'm missing the point. It was specifically said "unenlightened" and "enlightened" people. Enlightened people, by definition, have abandoned greed and hate. Unenlightened people, by definition, haven't. So there is certainly a difference between the two I would say. I don't see how there couldn't be.
    Do you know, for instance, any Buddhist practitioners who are "enlightened" and incapable of feeling/expressing greed or hate? No, right?
    I would not unequivocally answer no to that. I would answer with "possibly". :)
    Which means that you don't know, so ...
    I know there is a difference between being enlightened and not enlightened.

    :)

    How ??? Are you enlightened??

    How do people know the sun is 93 million miles away? Have they traveled there to measure it? No, but they still know it is. Something like that I would say.

  • NevermindNevermind Bitter & Hateful Veteran
    You're kidding right? It's not necessary to travel to the sun to determine the distance. The sun is there though. ;)
  • Nevermind said:

    You're kidding right? It's not necessary to travel to the sun to determine the distance. The sun is there though. ;)

    Did you measure the distance? If not, did you check the calculations of the ones that did?
    How do you know they got it right?
    The answer: you don't.
    You are taking it on faith that the measurement is accurate. You don't even question it.
    Why is that? Because you believe the people who made those calculations are experts in their field.
    Have you met one of them?
Sign In or Register to comment.