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Not sure if this has been asked yet but...
.. I'll ask anyway.
Today at work someone started talking "religion" with me. I could go into great detail about this person and give you an idea about them but I won't. The conversation went well, he's someone I speak to frequently at work so I guess you could call us "work" friends. But he is strictly a Christian and lives his life as close to it as he can, which he fails miserably but like I said I won't go into that to far.
My question is, if and when you are faced with someone who wants to get into that type of a conversation, what would you say?
I gave him the answers he wanted in a way that I thought not only didn't offend him, but that made sense to him. He asked questions like why I don't believe in a supreme being (God), how I can explain suffering, asked about why i think karma is important, etc... Like I said, he wasn't offended and it was a decent conversation. I just have a hard time with the "religious" talks as I have very firm opinions about other relgions.
No more babbling, thanks in advance for the answers guys... Hope you are ALL doing well!
Today at work someone started talking "religion" with me. I could go into great detail about this person and give you an idea about them but I won't. The conversation went well, he's someone I speak to frequently at work so I guess you could call us "work" friends. But he is strictly a Christian and lives his life as close to it as he can, which he fails miserably but like I said I won't go into that to far.
My question is, if and when you are faced with someone who wants to get into that type of a conversation, what would you say?
I gave him the answers he wanted in a way that I thought not only didn't offend him, but that made sense to him. He asked questions like why I don't believe in a supreme being (God), how I can explain suffering, asked about why i think karma is important, etc... Like I said, he wasn't offended and it was a decent conversation. I just have a hard time with the "religious" talks as I have very firm opinions about other relgions.
No more babbling, thanks in advance for the answers guys... Hope you are ALL doing well!
0
Comments
an great friend from my past and i have recently connected and she was so excited
about returning to the pentecostal church and told me all about it. so i just listened and
didnt say much.. im glad she has found some comfort from it..
my mom continues to ask me questions and my take on buddhist teachings.. and i answer
the best i can.. even though she is a christian.
my best girlfriend asked me the other day.. "so do you believe in god or not".. i was honest.. and i like this reply .. i said" well its not really important to me to either way "
i guess its individual.. i listen to them and take it from there.
I think it's relatively easy to state facts like:
1) Human life is suffering.
2) Suffering comes from our attachments to things.
3) There is a way to remove suffering.
4) It's the Eightfold Path.
Detail why and how the Eightfold Path works in your life.
Karma? Rebirth? Reincarnation?
These possibilities seem much easier to explain than
1) Walking on the water.
2) Raising people from the dead.
3) Turning the basic properties of water into alcohol.
4) How someone can die and come back to life.
5) Why isn't this person documented in any sort of history other than a book that was written specifically for him by his zealots.
6) How did this person go to heaven? And where is it?
7) How is he going to come back and raise a whole bunch of people from the dead.
8) If this omnipotent god loves people so much (which is stated in the Bible) why do so many awful, horrible, painful and cruel things happen to those that he loves? Does a parent let these same sort of things happen to their children if they can avoid it? And if you're omnipotent, why CAN'T you stop it from happening?
9) Why does he allow a powerful deceiver loose amongst his sheep to purposely deceive them?
Buddhism seems much more personal in that a Buddhist is living in the here and now. They are changing their views, practicing Right Intention, Right Mindfulness, Right Speech, etc. They are making a difference NOW versus sitting around waiting for some deity to dole out rewards or punishments at some appointed time that no one knows about.
-bf
even being a beginner I said many of the things that you wrote. I brought up all your latter questions too and they came with no answer or an understanding of why the dogmas don't add up. But, like colleen said, I listened to him as well. I did not take any of his info to heart at all, just humored him and let him speak.
Awesome answer BF, thanks alot, I appreciate it!!!
What do you think might happen if you gave up your "very firm opinions"? Maybe then you could communicate with him directly on a person-to-person basis. I'm not talking about trying to convert him, but just communicate with him.
When I was in Tulsa recently at the Cancer Treatment Center there caregiving one of our monks, I was kind of afraid to wear my robes around the hospital because Tulsa is Oral Roberts country, and the CTC was very Christian-oriented. Finally I just said to heck with it, I'm going to wear them, and I won't worry about it. It actually turned out to be a great experience. I got into all sorts of conversations, and none of them were of the "why do you believe this?" variety. They were just friendly, and those who couldn't be friendly at least had the courtesty to keep their mouths shut. When I just allowed myself to be who I am people were OK with it.
Just a thought...
Palzang
You may have seen that Cardinal Johannes Willebrands died the other day. He was a moving spirit of the ecumenical movement (we even spelled it "oecumenical" in the early days) that arose around the Second Vatican Council. What set such people as him apart from much mainstream action was his attitude of love and respect towards different denominations. My own experience suggests that there are great riches to be found in such dialogue.
With all respect to you, BF, I must take issue with you when you say: It is clear, from the Gospels, that any such "waiting around" is exactly what Christians are not to do. You don't have to look very far to see direct action by believers and their organisations: CAFOD, Christian Aid, Mother Teresa, Albert Schweitzer....... the list goes on and on. Indeed, one of the objections that some Christians have against Buddhism is that such direct social action is rarely to be found in the "Buddhist world"! Perhaps you have not had the blessing of coming across Christians who actually put their faith into practice as a challenge to the secular values of the rich and powerful.
It is a strange sort of 'respect' that praises the Noble Eighfold Path by 'dissing' the action of brothers and sisters whose path is different but who are confronting the challenge of human misery.
Please forgive me if you were not intending disrespect. It comes over that way to me and does not reflect what I have observed around the world and across the faith families.
Whenever I start to have strong feelings about something I stop and think about why I have strong feelings about it. For example, if someone disagrees with my point of view about a certain topic and I start to get tense and feel a little threatened I stop and look at why I'm feeling that way, what point of view am I trying to hold on to, why am I trying to hold on to it. Is it because the particular point of view I hold is part of how I define myself, part of this identity I've built for myself?
If I feel a little threatened by an opposing view point and I can see that my feelings stem from my desire to hold on to the identity I've built for myself I can look at that identity and understand that it's a construct, something I've built out of nothing and if I look very closely at that identity I can see that it doesn't actually exist, I made it up. So I'm trying to hold on to an illusion. It doesn't matter what opposing view points I come up against because none of them are an actual threat to me. In fact, they don't affect me at all in reality. They're just little bubbles of relativity that float on the wind, like everything else. They don't change me, they don't challenge me, they don't touch me. They don't do anything at all. They don't matter.
Nothing that we're going through in samsara is concrete or lasting in any way so we don't actually have to take much of it seriously. Everyone sees things differently but at the bottom of it we're all just reflections of each other and our selves. Any conflict that may arise comes from a mistaken belief that things are real and that they matter when they actually don't. Conflict in any form is based on illusion. So you can let it go and nothing bad will happen.
I've read that the Buddha said
"I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of magicians. I.... look upon the judgement of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons".
So, personally, I'm always happy to listen to Christians; their path isn't mine, for much the reasons that Bf set out above, but there's much I find I can learn from the finger they point at the moon.
It may be that I'm lucky in that I don't come up across a lot of in your face agressive Christians (though it doesn't sound as if your conversation, LfA, was aggressive either) but when I do I tell them that my view of all religious paths, including my own, is influenced by the words of their principle teacher, who said "By their fruits ye shall know them", and that another of thier teachers, St Paul, said (in his letter to the Galations) that "the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance". I then tell them that I would esteem their path more highly if we could perhaps display more longsuffering, meekness and temperance to each other.
Martin.
Simon...
Why do you think I would take offense at something you've stated? Silly boy
You make a great point.
"Love ye one another" "when a brother asks for your coat, give him your cloak also" - these are basic teachings in Christianity. I probably shot my mouth off a little too much regarding my statement about waiting around. But, it has been my experience that waiting around is exactly what a lot of Christians do. It's my feeling that Christianity has become so much the norm in the US that majority of people have lost what the basic teachings of the Christ are all about.
Going to church seems to be an act of "hedging your bet" - going through the routine just in case this whole "Rapture" thing isn't just a load of crap.
In fact, I should have ended my previous statement with "A good idea when someone asks you about Buddhism and you don't know how to respond is to: listen. Answer what you can only answer truthfully. You have nothing to prove to Christians and there is nothing wrong, in Buddhism, with saying, 'Gee... I just don't know that."
-bf
I see the translation that 'Life is suffering' for the 1st noble truth, and it seems like an overly absolute statement. I prefer, 'there is suffering' as it does not insert the term 'life' which has many different implications to it. Also, dukkha refers to the quality of 'unsatisfactoriness' of all conditioned existence. This can easily be transposed with the statement by Solomon in Ecclesiastes in which he says "Meaningless, everything under the sun is meaningless." Stated in this manner it is a point of agreement with those of Jewish & Christian faith, rather than a point of contention.
Basically, conditional existence cannot ultimately satisfy the individual, so we should stop clinging to it as though it could. This deluded clinging is what pulls us into suffering every time. The key is to spot the clinging. Once the clinging is released the delusion can be rooted out. Experiencing that release conditions us to keep spotting that release and to cultivate & learn the behaviors which bring it about (8-fold path).
These are direct experiences that can be verified by any individual. No belief system is required. While buddhism does genally refute the idea of an Omnipotent Creator-God (though there are beings who feel themselves to be so), any Christian can recognize & practice to the extent that it does not contradict their faith & they will experience the corresponding benefits.
Anyway, I have seen Christians contend with the view that 'life is suffering' as overly pessimistic & in contradiction to their experience on a somewhat frequent basis. As this was also not the actual wording of the 1st noble truth, I also feel the need to simply put it as it was worded.
Sorry for the rant folks. I couldn't put it down.
_/\_
metta
I think it's just a statement. I may not have even stated it correctly. But, typically the human condition doesn't go around saying, "Why am I so happy? Why is life so good? Is this it? Everything being perfect all the time?"
Suffering, contemplation and lamentations are usually triggers for making humans question why things happen the way they do.
The second statement I made, "Suffering comes from attachments and clinging" is just as general.
I've been kicked in the balls so hard I thought I was gonna pass out. All that pain and suffering had NOTHING to do with any form of attachment or clinging. Just the danglies...
-bf
Not to be contentious, but while I understand what you saying, it actually does have very much to do with clinging, as birth, old age, sickness & death (and all respective sorrow, lamentation & suffering) are all dependendent upon clinging in order to arise.
_/\_
metta
But your point was basically that "life is suffering" is really too general of a statement.
Just as "suffering comes from attachments and clinging" is truly too general of a statement too. Physical suffering from a bodily injury has nothing to do with clinging and attachments. It is simply physical pain.
I was only trying to state that these are, to me, generalizations. You know, being a Buddhist or having an interest in Buddha's teachings that, that while you recognize that your life may contain suffering because of attachments you have developed or formed - you also recognize that your life has included laughter, joy, love, peace, etc. as well.
That was the only point I was trying to make, my friend.
-bf
Really, I wasn't trying to split hairs. I understand where you are coming from. The only reason I make the point is that I have seen several anti-buddhist statements on Christian websites based on this translation of the 1st Noble Truth. I honestly feel it's a bit of a misrepresentation though it is not necessarily incorrect.
Once again, I was only contesting your statement on the basis that saying such a thing to a Christian may well bring about an argument that is not necessary and/or give them a negative impression of our Beliefs & Practice. Considering this thread is about LFA talking to a Christian thread, I thought I needed to give this advice. Please don't take this as anything the likes of a stern reprimand, but rather as an offering of advice to all those who may interact with Christians.
_/\_
metta
I wasn't really looking at your statements from the "conversing with a Christian" point of view - and you make a good point.
You made a good point in a very nice way.
<sniff>
I love you, man!
-bf
Aww, that's so sweet.
*tear rolling down cheek*
I love you too!
_/\_
metta
Palzang
*bows*
_/\_
metta
LFA's original query asks "what can we do" when confronted by others who also have strong beliefs about their religion. For me, Palzang-la's is golden: be who you are. Answer as best you can and when you don't know, just say so.
Brother Simon resonates a chord for me as well: because I've studied the so-called New Testament extensively, for me, Jesus is more like "master teacher" of things spiritual. When Christians ask me about Christ, I tell them I have a hard time accepting Jesus as Christ, but I have no problem accepting Jesus as Teacher. Aside from all the miracles, rising from the dead after three days bit, etc., etc., Roshi Jesus' teachings are simple, but dense. They are packed with meaning. They even have things to communicate Buddhists if they are taken as teachings on the Middle Path. When they hear that I actually know something about Jesus (which is almost always more than they do, themselves!), they back often down.
Many of my friends have criticized me for too much syncretism, for melding religious traditions and for not respecting 'boundaries' between systems of belief. For me, however, there are no boundaries. As Ghandi says, "For God, there is no religion" (thaks Brother Simon for the quote!). But I digress.
I guess for me, LFA, thinking of Jesus as Roshi has been one way that I've been able to get my foot in the door to the hearts and heads of somewhat skeptical Christians.
BTW: this has been a wonderful thread. Thanks, everyone, for the discussion.
Peace
Yes, I am rather new to middle path, having only been practicing for about 8 months now. But when it comes to the basics of what I choose to believe in, I feel comfortable talking with others about it. As I learn more I will have the knowledge to expound more about Buddhism to others, but till then I am happy to talk about it. I have never been happier in my life, maybe except for when I married my wife and my 2 children were born. The Buddha's teachings brings out something in me I have never experienced before, and I am glad to share that with anyone, regardless of their religion.
You only hurt because you are attached to the danglies, BF. I think the Buddha may have had a point!
St. Guru Chod
Palzang
Actually, the pain I feel is because of their attachment to me.
Well, that is until I lost them in the divorce.
-bf
Actually, I don't possess a TV..... Come to think of it, I don't own a radio/PC/telephone/mobile 'phone either..... !
Sorry....what century ARE we in.....?:hiding:
(I thought the only people in heaven were Catholics.....):poke:
I was reading this and was sort of sitting here evaluating myself.
I'm a big proponent of teachings and learning teachings. But, being the ignorant being that I am - I still have a hard time with some teachings.
Karma... this whole "past karma" thing is sometimes more than my little brain can handle or accept. I'm working on it - but it's still hard sometimes.
I was reading the statement about a child being born that was diseased and suffering and the statement about how they could have been a murderer in a previous life and they now have to deal with the karma of those actions.
I have a hard time with that.
I can grasp Buddha's teachings that there is suffering in life. A child may be born with diseases or deformaties - but that could be neither here nor there. Maybe it just happened. There was no deity involved punishing a young child. There was no past karma being paid for. It was just the conditions of chemicals, environment, outside factors, deficiences, etc. that cause a child to be deformed. Much like when other animals or plants have anomolies in their growth.
I, personally, leave karma alone in my discussions (although I rarely have discussions because I just don't gravitate towards religious/philosophical discussions). For someone that doesn't know much about Buddhism - there are a lot of teachings that you could talk to them about have nothing to do with karma, deities, arahants, boddhisattvas, rebirth, reincarnation, etc.
Don't really know why I wrote this - but it is written.
-bf
It does nothing of the kind.... at the risk of repeating myself (for which I apologise, to those who are experiencing my 'stuck-record-edness' - !!).....
The Buddha himself pointed out four Unconjecturables, or Imponderables, one of which are the complexities of The Law of Karma. He was trying to save us all an awful lot of wasted brain-effort, because Karma is so convoluted, and depends on so many different factors, that the True "Ins-and-outs" of it, are too mind-boggling for the Un-Enlightened. And that's OK!
Karma is just Karma. If you create a 'Bad' Action, chances are, more or less, the immediate result/response will also be 'Bad'. Likewise with a 'Good' Action....
But HHDL says quite often, that there is very little point in trying to understand just where our current Karma stems from. We have enough on our plate in just dealing with what's on our plate, today.
And all we can do, is deal with the "stuff" in front of us, by following the 8Fold path,and transforming it as positively as we can....
All this "It happens because I musta been real bad!" is just a waste of Time. "Good" Time.
Thanks for the posting Freddie - I thought maybe I was just hiding in the closet instead of spending a whole bunch of time pondering all those karmic imponderables.
-bf
Breaking it down to an "I" statement should bear sometruth.
Does anyone else see one of the five sakndas.
Possibly mental formations?
I personnally don't have a problem making my point using examples and references from other religions. I have come to see every belief system is a fabrication within the observer. During a recent conversation with a brother-in-law, he concluded, I believe in God. I told him, " If what I said fits you're discription of God that's okay.":winkc:
Sounds like the ball is in your court.
Karma again????? LOL
Again for me, it's that which you do.
Great....Just what I wanted.... a full weekend of images of BF finally coming out of the closet.....!!:bigclap:
Just a thought... Have you been reading J. Krishnamurti again.
-bf
Didn't that Christ guy say, " The kingdom of heaven is at hand ! "
BF,
That's the whole point of karma, things don't just happen. Everything that arises depends on something else. Nothing can happen without a cause.
I have a hard time dealing with "everything" has to do with karma. I still haven't seen my way clear through to that.
It may be karma - but then maybe karma isn't a child being born deformed because of something they did in a previous life. Maybe it's the karma he's suffering from a mother who did drugs during her pregnancy which caused the childs deformities. Maybe it was a chemical deficiency in her system that caused it. Maybe it was the way the fetus grew in the womb.
If karma is a reaction to an action - can those "actions" also not be happenstance?
I just can't cope with the whole mystical edge to karma just yet. I'm sorry
-bf
Wow!
You're making me feel really comfortable, Fede.
I'm already feeling bolder! Someone want to turn on the lights now?
-bf
Actually, Fede, there's no "sort of" about karma. Karma is exacting. However, I totally agree with you when you say that it's not about guilt or blame. After all, we all carry all kinds of karma, from the very, very worst to the very, very best. In other words, you can't look down your nose at someone and say, "Oh, you've got a birth defect. You were very bad in some former life!" That's stupid and totally misses the point. The Buddha taught the law of karma not to make us all feel bad about ourselves but to teach us how to achieve happiness. It's within our power to do so. We don't need to depend on outside help from gods or men. We can do it on our own. That's the true meaning of karma.
Palzang
Well, maybe not "stupid", my friend.
You see... our friend that opened this thread was trying to explain things to the best of their ability.
Catch my drift?
-bf
*BUH...LINK*
Palzang
That's an interesting-looking light switch! :hair: :wow:
I saved to to my computer to send to some friends.
Adiana:D
I just didn't want anyone's feelings hurt with an off-hand comment.
Remember... there are no stupid questions, only stupid people.
-bf
Well I guess my whole original post is being a bit misinterpreted. The whole point to me posting the questions and the answers that I gave, were based on the understanding I have so far of what I have read. I have mentioned I am rather new and do not have all the answers, hence posting what I did to get responses from you all so I may properly understand the teachings of Buddha.
I never said what I had said was right, or that I was concrete that they were the proper answers. If my understanding is "stupid" or "ignorant" to be more PC, than rather than be demeaning about it, tell me how I could go about it the right way. That is all I asked, not for someone to worry about more PC terms to use to explain my misunderstanding of the teachings, etc...
Thank you though to the people that have tried to explain a better way for me. I guess it is not time for me to try and have these conversations until I understand more. Thank you!