Zoning out in zazen...

Invincible_summer

My main practice is zazen, although as of late I've been trying some samatha-vipassana and metta meditation.

I've noticed that with samatha-vipassana + metta, it's easier to sit for longer periods since I am noting and I have an object of meditation. For zazen, it's not that I get excruciatingly bored, but since there's nothing to do but "just sit," I can't really tell if I'm zoning out or if I'm just really "in the present moment."

What's the telltale sign (other than snoring and falling over) that one has "zoned out" in zazen?

Takuan

I suggest reading "The Ch'an Handbook" it has several techniques that can help.

how

The telltale sign of zoning out is simply not being present where you are.

Invincible_summer

I know it sounds obvious! But it's not that I'm daydreaming about living in the south of France or anything like that. I'm taking in the sounds of the surroundings, and I am conscious of my breathing, my posture, etc... but sometimes I still feel like I'm "not there," mentally speaking, even if I'm not (consciously) thinking about anything. Nor am I thinking about nothing.

how

Welcome to reality.

seeker242

Invincible_summer said:

My main practice is zazen, although as of late I've been trying some samatha-vipassana and metta meditation.

I've noticed that with samatha-vipassana + metta, it's easier to sit for longer periods since I am noting and I have an object of meditation. For zazen, it's not that I get excruciatingly bored, but since there's nothing to do but "just sit," I can't really tell if I'm zoning out or if I'm just really "in the present moment."

What's the telltale sign (other than snoring and falling over) that one has "zoned out" in zazen?

It's almost impossible to say for sure just over the internet. Questions like this are best answered by a teacher in person because a teacher, a good one at least, can discern things about you and you practice, that go beyond just what you say about it.

Do you generally feel more energized by just sitting or more sleepy? Not necessarily asleep and not necessarily ready to run a marathon, but simply towards one direction or the other. I personally find that if I'm going towards the sleepy direction, that is just zoning out. But in the other direction, not zoning out. They don't call zazen "to leap like a tiger while sitting" for no reason.

BhikkhuJayasara

I know what your problem is.. you need a dude behind you with a ruler to keep you straight and to wack you if you fall asleep! :P

shadowleaver

I practice with a Zen group but our meditation is more of an insight type, working on koans. We are also encouraged to pay close attention to bodily sensations (especially the breath) and the senses, while taking the "just watch it" stance.

Invincible_summer said:

What's the telltale sign (other than snoring and falling over) that one has "zoned out" in zazen?

Even though I don't practice the "just sitting" style, zoning out is always an issue. For me it's whenever I am actively thinking about something that I've zoned out. It's as if there's this tendency for the focus of awareness to shift into the head and get stuck in its fantasizing and ruminating. That for me is "zoning out". The recipe for zoning back in is to make the effort to shift awareness to what is happening right now, both in the body and immediately around it.

The thinking happens most of the time and that's just how it is. However, one can be a participant in that mental performance or a spectator. A major goal of meditation, as I see it, is to be more of a spectator than a participant. When I've been dragged from the spectator's sit onto the scene, I've zoned out and need to make the effort to leave the scene and find my sit once again. Over and over again.

Another thought: perhaps insight-samatha-metta meditation styles fit you better? There are a few flavors of Buddhist practice out there and I think different people do better with different types. (I've also found that having a sangha which I feel connected with is quite important as nothing strenghenes the practice as having that social support. For me that might be more important than the style of practice that I choose)

But keep at it, whatever the details. They say it's a life's work.

BhikkhuJayasara

A quick question with Zazen... Are you literally not doing anything period? Or is it just a passive observation of just whatever comes up/happens?

Are you trying to not even observe( I don't mean actively note or contemplate)/ignore phenomenon?

Glow

This was a problem for me as well. This is how I differentiated the two:

Zoning out = you aren't "in your body"; you aren't tuned into the senses and the mind has become lost in "virtual reality"

Zazen = mind like sky, breath like wind, body like mountain, thoughts and sensations like clouds and rivers flowing through the landscape respectively

how

Invincible_summer said:

I know it sounds obvious! But it's not that I'm daydreaming about living in the south of France or anything like that. I'm taking in the sounds of the surroundings, and I am conscious of my breathing, my posture, etc... but sometimes I still feel like I'm "not there," mentally speaking, even if I'm not (consciously) thinking about anything. Nor am I thinking about nothing.

(1) There is always the possibility of zoning out but when that occures, it isn't accompanied with the actual awareness that your not there.
(2) Zoning out is always marked by the experience of an eventual return to awareness where as Meditative awareness, because it is being fully present, doesn't allow for a returning to awareness, because it never left.
Zazen can often be a window into egolessness where you experience the absense of identity. You can use the above two rules to determine what's what..

seeker242

Jayantha said:

A quick question with Zazen... Are you literally not doing anything period? Or is it just a passive observation of just whatever comes up/happens?

Are you trying to not even observe( I don't mean actively note or contemplate)/ignore phenomenon?

Ideally, you are just sitting there and that's it, with no trying of anything one way or the other, not even the trying of just sitting there. Of course things appear and disappear and you notice them because you aren't unconscious, but ideally you aren't trying to notice them and you aren't trying to ignore them. I like the below explanation from here: http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/shikantaza.html

WITHOUT THINKING (hishiryo): This is no-thought (munen; wu-nien) or no-mind (mushin; wu-hsin): pure immediacy in the fullness of things as they are.

1. About "not-thinking,": (1) noetic attitude: nonpositional (neither affirming nor negating); (2) noematic content: pure presence of things as they are (genjokoan).

a) Noetic attitude is nonpositional (neither affirming nor negating): Consciousness is no longer an intentional vector proceeding from a subject to an object but is, rather, an open dynamic field in which objects present themselves.

b) Noematic content: The object is no longer an object that is the target of an intentional act but is, rather, the object itself as it presents itself within the open dynamic field of consciousness.

c) Aspects of "without thinking":

(1) No subject-object distinction: The subject has disappeared—this being the Zen interpretation of Buddhist anatta or no-mind.

(2) Immediacy: Without a subject standing back, the experience is one of immediacy within the dynamic field of consciousness.

(3) Fullness: Because the object is not filtered through an intentional act, it presents itself in its fullness.

(4) Such immediacy and fullness are genjokoan, "pure presence of things as they are."

Jayantha said:

I know what your problem is.. you need a dude behind you with a ruler to keep you straight and to wack you if you fall asleep! :P

That helps! Contrary to popular belief, getting whacked with the stick feels good. It's like a mini massage almost.

lobster

I still feel like I'm "not there," mentally speaking

You are indeed not.
. . . . 'not there' is a realisation you need to consolidate and move on from
These guys can help . . .
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

How wonderful :wave:

Invincible_summer

@seeker242 - Yea, I've been meaning to talk to our zazen leader about it, but I haven't had the chance as I've been busy. But I know there are a lot of experienced people here, so I thought I'd see what you all think.

I don't feel sleepy nor energized... well sometimes I'm a tad sleepy, and in that case I can definitely tell that I'm zoning out. But more often than not it's quite neutral.



@shadowleaver - thanks for your insights. The experience I talked about in the original post feels more like spectating than a conscious effort to be "clear-minded" or anything.

And I do have a bad habit of forgetting that it's a life practice. Thanks for keeping me on track.

how said:

(1) There is always the possibility of zoning out but when that occures, it isn't accompanied with the actual awareness that your not there.
(2) Zoning out is always marked by the experience of an eventual return to awareness where as Meditative awareness, because it is being fully present, doesn't allow for a returning to awareness, because it never left.
Zazen can often be a window into egolessness where you experience the absense of identity. You can use the above two rules to determine what's what..

Hmm.. I'll have to think about that one. Thanks @how.

Awakening

Zazen is thinking without thinking. If you are zoning out, that means you are either clinging to thought or resisting thought, both of which lead to being zoned out.

Invincible_summer

Awakening said:

Zazen is thinking without thinking. If you are zoning out, that means you are either clinging to thought or resisting thought, both of which lead to being zoned out.

I don't mean to sound snarky, @Awakening, but I've already sort of addressed this. I'm not sure if "zoning out" is proper term to use, but I'm not sure what to make of it! The experience I'm talking about happens when I'm not clinging to thoughts nor resisting them. I'm aware of stuff going on in the present moment, but I also feel slightly "disconnected" I guess is another way to put it. Almost like I've spaced out, but I'm not thinking nor am I trying to not think.

Awakening

Then I would suggest mindfulness of the body to sort of "ground" you.

Awakening

Also, note that I didn't say it was between thinking and suppressing thought, I said it could happen due to clinging to thought (even clinging to subtle thoughts) or resisting thought. There's no problem with thinking itself. It's part of the instruction "think without thinking" or "think not-thinking".

Invincible_summer

Awakening said:

Then I would suggest mindfulness of the body to sort of "ground" you.

Is that part of shikantaza practice? I want to try and do shikantaza when I'm sitting with a Zen group, and do insight-samatha-metta at other times, not mix them up.

Awakening

Most major Zen teachers, such as Dogen, taught a non-duality of mind-body. So being mindful of the body certainly isn't non-Zen, although the goal is the dropping off of mind-body.