'The desire to control our extinction' - What does this mean?

Tosh

I'm just reading Steve Hagen's Buddhism Plain and Simple and don't understand this bit:

Our problem is that we don't see change as mere coming and going. Instead, we think that it somehow entails persistence - even though this is in contradiction to direct experience, which reveals only flux and change. We imagine that things come into existence, endure for a while, and then pass out of existence.

Because we think this way, we have yet another desire: the desire for non-existence - the desire to control our extinction.

All three of these desires arise because of our confusion about change.

What does Mr Hagen mean about we have the 'desire for non-existence - the desire to control our extinction'?

I'm not sure I have the desire for non-existence, but I'm thinking that when I used to drink, I used to drink to oblivion (non-existence?), but I think I'm on the right track.

Can anyone help with a better explanation?

zenff

Like thirst for existence; thirst for non-existence is binding us and making us unhappy.
I think that’s a classical part of Buddhist thought on tanha or thirst.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taṇhā
Craving not to be
• Pali: vibhava-taṇhā
• Also referred to as craving for "no becoming" or "non-existence" or "extermination"[11]
• This is craving to not experience the world, and to be nothing.[4]
• The Dalai Lama states that craving for "destruction is a wish to be separated from painful feelings".[12]
• Ron Leifer states: "As the desire for life is based on the desire for pleasure and happiness, the desire for death is based on the desire to escape pain and [suffering]... The desire for death is the yearning for relief from pain, from anxiety, from disappointment, despair, and negativity."[13]
• "The motive for the desire for death is most transparent in cases of suicide. Clearly, people with terminal illnesses who commit suicide are motivated by the desire to escape from physical pain and suffering. In so-called "altruistic" suicide, such as hari-kari, kamakazi, and other forms of socially conditioned suicide, the motive is to avoid mental suffering–shame, humiliation, and disgrace."[13]

Tosh

Thanks @zenff, that makes perfect sense now.

Cheers.

zenff

You're welcome!

Sometimes gloomy Buddhism has an element of vibhava-tanha; I think.
Going on about how all life is dukkha and how we desire to put an end to rebirth in samsara shows a negative desire. That's not freedom.
I think that when I’m saying this, I’m in line with traditional Buddhist thought.

Citta

He is is highlighting a very real problem one encounters , its most common in western " Zen " forums..and has nothing to do with actual Zen Buddhism.
Someone ( often with a background of emotional instability ) falls in love with the notion of non existence. And interprets Buddhism as endorsing that view.
It has various names. One of them is " Zen Sickness " although it can be found among Dzogchen students too.
Among its symptoms is a compulsive need to dismiss all questions as being resolvable by the simple expedient of assuring questioner that they, the questioners, do not exist !
In the end it is solipsism with a Buddhist overcoat.
The erroneous idea that nothing exists apart from my mind.

Tosh

Citta said:

The erroneous idea that nothing exists apart from my mind.

Chittamatrin Buddhist point of view too, possibly?

Citta

Not quite. The difference is the "my ".

Patr

@Tosh

Because we think this way, we have yet another desire: the desire for non-existence - the desire to control our extinction.

All three of these desires arise because of our confusion about change.

What does Mr Hagen mean about we have the 'desire for non-existence - the desire to control our extinction'?

I'm not sure I have the desire for non-existence, but I'm thinking that when I used to drink, I used to drink to oblivion (non-existence?), but I think I'm on the right track.

Can anyone help with a better explanation?



Think many many people make the mistake of thinking Nirvana is 'non-existence', which is quite wrong. Nirvana is but a state of mind. Our minds can be trained through meditation to gain wisdom. Wisdom which allows us to have realisations of the 'truth'. The mind then achieves complete purity of thought, having abandoned all the hindrances. This is the path which leads to our liberation.

Another point often seen is the gross misinterpretation of 'Emptiness', to mean that we dont exist, or anything else for that matter.

genkaku

Just because you throw it out doesn't mean there isn't still a lot of trash around the house.