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Can you accumulate bad karma by putting money in an investment fund?

karmablueskarmablues Veteran
edited March 2013 in General Banter
Hi, I am thinking about making an investment in a fund but wondering whether it's possible to accumulate bad karma by doing so.

Let's say I buy shares in an investment fund and then the fund manager uses the money in the fund to buy some stocks of a company that produces alcoholic beverages. While the fund is holding stocks of this company, then it seems I would be indirectly giving financial support to this company to carry on its business of selling alcohol. Also, when I sell my shares in the fund, this would mean that I would have, at least indirectly, profited from the sale of alcoholic beverages by said company.

Therefore, would my investment in the fund be an accumulation of bad karma? If it is an accumulation of bad karma, would the situation change if I purposely kept myself ignorant of what the fund manager was doing with my money, ie. I refrain from getting any information about what the fund manager is doing with the money in the fund.

Comments

  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited March 2013
    Even those most likely to see karma in literal terms say that its the intention that creates the karma-vipaka ( the fruit of karma ). YOUR intention that is.
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Why not just talk with the fund manager about what possibilities exist to control where your money is going?
  • karmablueskarmablues Veteran
    karasti said:

    Why not just talk with the fund manager about what possibilities exist to control where your money is going?

    Actually, I like to invest in funds that track the movements of a certain country's stock exchange index. The way these types of funds are managed is often through statistically sampling the market and holding "representative" securities. This means that in many cases the manager simply relies on a computer model to decide which securities to purchase. This unfortunately also means that I can't control where the money goes.

  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    Then it's a matter of choice of which is more important to you. Keeping what you prefer as your investment or knowing where the money is going. Intention is a lot of what goes into Karma, just make sure the intention is true. You can't fool or bluff Karma into thinking your heart is in a different place, lol. Also, it's worth remembering that sometimes it's possible to overthink things. If you look at everything in your life, all of us in some ways are contributing to things that contribute to problems in the eightfold path. By buying things that contribute to abuse of workers in other countries, by supporting companies that do a poor job with taking care of people or the environment or animals, etc. If you look too far, it would be almost impossible to live in today's world. It's certainly good to be aware, but you can only do the best you can with what we have today, and it can't be compared easily to the world Buddha lived in.
    karmabluesCitta
  • DakiniDakini Veteran
    edited March 2013
    karmablues said:

    Hi, I am thinking about making an investment in a fund but wondering whether it's possible to accumulate bad karma by doing so.

    Let's say I buy shares in an investment fund and then the fund manager uses the money in the fund to buy some stocks of a company that produces alcoholic beverages. While the fund is holding stocks of this company, then it seems I would be indirectly giving financial support to this company to carry on its business of selling alcohol. Also, when I sell my shares in the fund, this would mean that I would have, at least indirectly, profited from the sale of alcoholic beverages by said company.

    Therefore, would my investment in the fund be an accumulation of bad karma? If it is an accumulation of bad karma, would the situation change if I purposely kept myself ignorant of what the fund manager was doing with my money, ie. I refrain from getting any information about what the fund manager is doing with the money in the fund.

    There are investment funds that specialize in socially and environmentally responsible companies. They tend to do better in downturns, especially downturns that affect (or are caused by) one industry, like the oil industry, banking, and so forth. Explore your options. Talk to your investment person.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    The problem with the question is this:

    In my view, if you knew that an investment fund used unscrupulous business practices and/or had major investments in companies that very questionable, then yes.

    But, investment companies don't remain static. Investments change daily, weekly, monthly. It would be impossible to keep up with it all.

  • chelachela Veteran
    I think it is also wise to remember that Karma does happen also from the action (the doing), not just the intent. If you are funding what would be considered unethical businesses, you are promoting unethical business behavior, whether that was your intention or not. Businesses will use your money for their will. Karma can be the cold, hard results of an action, regardless of intent. Accidents are accidents, but there are also results, whether you intend them or not. To be skilful, I think you have to think deeply through (be mindful of) your actions. This is where you will most likely discover the answer to your questions and those answers will skilfully guide your actions. And then, your intent will be honest and skilful.
    vinlynkarmablues
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    For me, I usually find that once I have had to ask such a question, I usually already know the answer and when I ask I am hoping someone will convince me my answer is wrong, because it's the answer I don't want, lol. Not saying everyone does this, but I find myself doing it often. Sometimes I go to ask a question here, or elsewhere, and in typing it I discover "crap. I already know the answer and the only reason I'm asking is because I hope someone talks me out of it." Then I erase my question and have to decide for myself if I'm going to follow the path that is right, or not. (again, not saying which path is right in your case, just when I am working myself on various issues)
    karmablues
  • MaryAnneMaryAnne Veteran
    Why not invest in the stocks of companies or causes you would approve of overall ... like say investing in green technology or organic farming stocks? Or what about investing in solar or wind energy companies?
    Like @vinlyn said, there is very little control where your money goes when investing in an investment firm... so take control! :D
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited March 2013
    chela said:

    I think it is also wise to remember that Karma does happen also from the action (the doing), not just the intent. If you are funding what would be considered unethical businesses, you are promoting unethical business behavior, whether that was your intention or not. Businesses will use your money for their will. Karma can be the cold, hard results of an action, regardless of intent. Accidents are accidents, but there are also results, whether you intend them or not. To be skilful, I think you have to think deeply through (be mindful of) your actions. This is where you will most likely discover the answer to your questions and those answers will skilfully guide your actions. And then, your intent will be honest and skilful.

    This is not the Buddhist understanding of karma. It does however correspond to the Jain understanding and some schools of Hinduism.
    The Buddha in the Anuguttara Sutta says that what creates karma -vipaka ( ' karma ' MEANS action ) is the sankharas..which translates as volitional activities. Those activities which are consciously willed. In other words intentional activities.
    Unintended actions may create consequences,,but they do not according to the Buddha create karma- vipaka. The idea that action creates karma is a common misperception. Karma IS action. Intentional action creates karma-vipaka , the results or fruits of action
    Check it out.
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    Of course that does not detract from the need to be mindful in the way that we conduct ourselves in business or in general terms.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Citta said:

    chela said:

    I think it is also wise to remember that Karma does happen also from the action (the doing), not just the intent. If you are funding what would be considered unethical businesses, you are promoting unethical business behavior, whether that was your intention or not. Businesses will use your money for their will. Karma can be the cold, hard results of an action, regardless of intent. Accidents are accidents, but there are also results, whether you intend them or not. To be skilful, I think you have to think deeply through (be mindful of) your actions. This is where you will most likely discover the answer to your questions and those answers will skilfully guide your actions. And then, your intent will be honest and skilful.

    This is not the Buddhist understanding of karma. It does however correspond to the Jain understanding and some schools of Hinduism.
    The Buddha in the Anuguttara Sutta says that what creates karma -vipaka ( ' karma ' MEANS action ) is the sankharas..which translates as volitional activities. Those activities which are consciously willed. In other words intentional activities.
    Unintended actions may create consequences,,but they do not according to the Buddha create karma- vipaka. The idea that action creates karma is a common misperception. Karma IS action. Intentional action creates karma-vipaka , the results or fruits of action
    Check it out.
    I disagree. Intent alone is not the determinant of karma. Making wise decisions must be a part of it.

  • CittaCitta Veteran
    Wise or unwise decisions are the result of the volitional intent. The volitional intent creates the karma-vipaka. Positive ot negative.
    I dont just sit here making stuff up for amusement.
    I suggest that you check out what the Buddha says..not what Citta or vinlyn says.
    Start with the Anuguttara Sutta.

    _/\_
  • karastikarasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
    I think intent is trickier than we wish it was. We can easily use it as an escape from responsibility. In the case here, if you are already aware that your money in the context you wish to invest it, might be used in investment in arms, alcohol, abuse of people, etc. then if you decide to carry forth, IMO you cannot then say it was not your intent to fund any of those things. Ignorance is also not an excuse. It is one thing to truly not know, but once you know, you can no longer claim ignorance, or pure intent. Only you know which it is. Sometimes we decide to take on the consequences of our actions and follow through anyhow. It's our decision to make. But you can't pretend karmic consequences away by saying you didn't intend to put your money towards those things when you know it's a distinct possibility and you could have made other choices to ensure it didn't happen. Nor can you go back to not knowing. You cannot un-know something and then claim ignorance.
    karmablues
  • CittaCitta Veteran
    edited March 2013
    The link between karma ( action ) and karma-vipaka ( the fruit of action ) is cetana ( intention ).
    That is basic Buddhist teaching.
    Easily verified.
    How that works out in practice might have all sorts of wheels within wheels.
    But the basic Buddhist teaching is not hard to grasp.
    If one has any doubt about any action..then err on the side of caution.
    This is just one example of the fact that knowing doctrine is no substitute for using our brain and reason.
  • NancyRoseNancyRose
    Haha, I love all the splitting of hairs. Karma means "act," which includes intention, because thoughts are "active."

    A Buddhist friend of mine invested in a "green, caring, sustainable" investment firm... and found out a couple of years later that the investment firm had been bought by another firm, which invested in whatever made money for them, including Monsanto and other huge corporations that she wanted to avoid at all costs.

    Frankly, if you want advise, invest in real estate, that is, real true down-to-earth land, treat it with great respect, watch it grow in value as you treat it well...This may be the only kind of investment where you have direct involvement, see the results of your actions immediately, and can really improve the lives of others and your own as well.
  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    Citta said:

    The link between karma ( action ) and karma-vipaka ( the fruit of action ) is cetana ( intention ).
    That is basic Buddhist teaching.
    Easily verified.
    How that works out in practice might have all sorts of wheels within wheels.
    But the basic Buddhist teaching is not hard to grasp.
    If one has any doubt about any action..then err on the side of caution.
    This is just one example of the fact that knowing doctrine is no substitute for using our brain and reason.

    In a sense, I think this post somewhat contradicts your last post.

  • vinlynvinlyn Colorado...for now Veteran
    karasti said:

    Ignorance is also not an excuse. It is one thing to truly not know, but once you know, you can no longer claim ignorance, or pure intent. ...

    Thank you. That expresses so well what I've been trying to say about wisdom and it's relationship to intent.

  • karmablueskarmablues Veteran
    karasti said:

    For me, I usually find that once I have had to ask such a question, I usually already know the answer and when I ask I am hoping someone will convince me my answer is wrong, because it's the answer I don't want, lol. Not saying everyone does this, but I find myself doing it often. Sometimes I go to ask a question here, or elsewhere, and in typing it I discover "crap. I already know the answer and the only reason I'm asking is because I hope someone talks me out of it." Then I erase my question and have to decide for myself if I'm going to follow the path that is right, or not. (again, not saying which path is right in your case, just when I am working myself on various issues)

    Bullseye! And after reading the good advice and comments from various posters, I've decided it's time to try to overcome this greed and be more discerning with how to invest my money.
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