Baby's First Sutta

meh_

I've had a little nose around on Access to Insight and read a couple of suttas, but I've been advised that as a beginner I shouldn't try to tackle some of the more 'advanced' ones yet. Where would be a good place to start out? Is there a list of recommended beginner material?

As an aside - why is it that the suttas contain a lot of repetition? When there is a set of things, they are dealt with in an almost identical way, with only one or two words changed each time.

federica

Repetition is because suttas were once memorised... therefore, in the original language, they had almost a musical poetic rhythm to them... you know how easy it is to memorise pop songs, but doing homework and 'getting it' sucks!!?

My dad always used to say:

If you studied as well as you watched television, you'd be a genius!"
I replied,
"If they taught subjects in the same way - we would all be geniuses!"

I think it's fine to tackle the advanced ones when you feel capable.
If you read something and you begin to think, "What the....? " :scratch: then just leave it aside. Eventually, through practice, you will find that returning to something which previously confused you, will now leave you :thumbsup: !!

Just take it easy.
It's not a race, competition or trial. There's no time-limit or obligation.

Enjoy.

Sabre

Hey! Nice title

There is no inherent problem to try and get the 'advanced' suttas first. In fact, I'm happy you put advanced in quotes. Why? Because in a way, the most advanced suttas are actually the simple ones. The dhamma can be seen if we just understand one aspect. It all comes together if we really deeply see - to give the best example - the four noble truths. Or one of the four, for that matter.

The Buddha gave all the other teachings not as more stuff to get to know, but as other means for people to get another way into the teachings. They all point towards the same thing, to the dhamma. Yes, all teachings fit together like a jigsaw puzzle, but you don't need to complete the whole puzzle to see what it represents. Some people may know what the puzzle is about by looking at just one piece carefully. They need no further teachings to understand. These people are also in the suttas.

So when I hear or read people state things like 'this sutta is for advanced practitioners', I get a bit itchy. It may actually say more about them than about the sutta..

That having said, there is a sort of order in the teachings. Why don't you start off with the first three discourses of the Buddha? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel017.html

If you are really intending to read lots, I would advise to read the Majhima Nikaya, the Middle Length Discourses. They are not too long, not too short. And a lot of different aspects are treated in them. Things to motivate, things about meditation, about the dhamma.

As to your second question, the suttas contain so much repetition because they were transmitted by chanting in the first years. As far as my limited knowledge goes, there was no written script in that part of the world at the time, the languages were oral. Suttas are still chanted to this day on, partly to keep the tradition going.

Have a nice reading!
Sabre

meh_

Thankyou federica and Sabre. I'm glad that I finally understand why the suttas are structured like that - when I first heard that the original teachings were passed down orally, I had my doubts - but this must ensure a reasonable level of reliability.

I'll have a read of those three suttas Sabre, thanks.

BonsaiDoug

meh_ said:

Where would be a good place to start out? Is there a list of recommended beginner material?

Try here for some guidance:
http://readingfaithfully.org/

Sabre

One more piece of advise, remember the puzzle pieces? Don't get stuck on one piece, as federica also said. But also, there may be pieces that don't belong to the puzzle. Yes, a bit sad to hear, but the suttas did not survive 2500 years without some second hand alternations in them. This can be seen by comparing different transmissions of the suttas. There are a few different versions.

Not to worry, though, because the general idea is still the same and the suttas are still quite reliable. The differences are very subtle. Just to say to not take them as a word of truth, like a bible. Some people do, and personally I think it's not so wise. They get into heated debates about some minute details in 2500 year old text that you can not expect to be 100% accurate. Don't know about you of course, but just as a general advise. Hope it doesn't spoil your fun or reading! I personally love reading suttas, much more than commentaries or modern dhamma books.

Just keep laying the pieces that fit into your puzzle. Keep the big picture in mind.

fivebells

I strongly recommend reading the sutras along with some modern commentary, as they can be quite hard to piece together without a guide who understands the whole picture. It's important to remember that Buddhism started as an oral tradition, of which the sutras were only one part. They do not contain complete instructions on how to practice. The best treatments I've seen of the sutras are Thanissaro's commentaries, particularly Wings to Awakening, but that may be a bit heavy for a beginner. Mind Like Fire Unbound was the first book of his that I read. It is a bit theoretical, though, not much practical advice about how to meditate. Both of these books are available on the Access to Insight website, and they both contain hyperlinked references to sets of sutras which cover the core ideas.

I think there actually are some sutras which are inappropriate for beginners, the ones which deal with emptiness and dependent origination. I would never point a beginner at the Bahiya Sutra or the Great End of Craving Sutra and expect them to get anything useful out of reading them, for instance.

Sabre

If I may suggest some commentary, on the link below is a teaching on "The Word of the Buddha" (also downloadable there), which is a collection of parts of the suttas, put in an orderly way. I really enjoyed these and learned a lot. The audio was not the best when I listened to it, but this was some years ago. It seems like they are updated every once in a while, when the teachings are given again to new students, so you may be in more luck.

http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/downloads/itemlist/category/47-deeper-dhamma.html?start=20

Also, there are comments on the first suttas in the Majhima Nikaya, I just noticed. I never listened to these, but I'm quite sure they will be nice as well.

Kindness,
Sabre

caz

meh_ said:

I've had a little nose around on Access to Insight and read a couple of suttas, but I've been advised that as a beginner I shouldn't try to tackle some of the more 'advanced' ones yet. Where would be a good place to start out? Is there a list of recommended beginner material?

As an aside - why is it that the suttas contain a lot of repetition? When there is a set of things, they are dealt with in an almost identical way, with only one or two words changed each time.

IMO Bhikkhu Bodhi is excellent for presenting Sutta's in a readable way, If you get a chance to read some of his work do so. Sutta's can be very long and very taxing to read.

meh_

I listened to the first talk Sabre - I really like Ajahn Brahm, and having a commentary on the content itself is certainly helpful. fivebells and caz - I'll be sure to look them up - thanks!

This may be down to a lack of sleep, but I've found that the more I read, and the more I think - the less I feel I understand!

footiam

meh_ said:

I've had a little nose around on Access to Insight and read a couple of suttas, but I've been advised that as a beginner I shouldn't try to tackle some of the more 'advanced' ones yet. Where would be a good place to start out? Is there a list of recommended beginner material?

As an aside - why is it that the suttas contain a lot of repetition? When there is a set of things, they are dealt with in an almost identical way, with only one or two words changed each time.

I haven't heard of this that one has to read according to sequence, simple sutta, to more advanced sutta. What is simple to someone could be advanced to another person just like one's meat is another's poison. Never mind the repetition in the sutta. It's the idea that counts.