What does perfect mean? Is a Buddha perfect?

Jeffrey

I suppose that the Buddha was perfect enough to give teachings, so yeah, I'd have to say that in the context of the needs of beings he *was* perfect. But then what is perfect. I think there are many angles. My dad always says "perfection is for the gods"

But then for normal people we strive to come as close to perfect as we are able. Excellence. Or some of us just do just enough and are very efficient. Ram Dass says that you should give just the right amount of presence, not too much and not too little.

Jeffrey

To say there is perfection takes a lot of beliefs on board. Iam imperfect now. There is perfection in the future. There is time and sequence. I question what are beliefs? What is that?

karasti

Another way of looking at it is that everything is perfect just as it is, every moment perfect exactly how it happens. If it's not perfect, then we have to place judgement on it as bad, when nothing is supposed to be good, or bad, just is.
I'm not really sure what I think, honestly, lol. We've had similar discussions in our Sangha about the idea of everything being perfect as it is. I think, I guess that I find that to be true. Obviously, I am not perfect right now. But if it is always there, if Buddha mind or nature is in all of us, present for us to find at all times, doesn't that mean we are at least always carrying perfection with us at all times even if we haven't quite unlocked it yet?

Jeffrey

Yeah I think it's interesting karasti. It is said that we need aspirational bodhicitta to sustain us towards and during the eightfold path. Yet there are all these sayings like we are already Buddhas and like I mentioned it is dependent on our view. Are all things perfect? Is there a time and space continuity on the way to Buddhahood?

lobster

You could say each moment is complete or synchronous
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity
However we also experience aspects of differentiation from which we resolve our sense of imperfection or dukkha.
So again we have the flawed and the flawless, samsara and nirvana, the perfect imperfection. One is free, the other enslaved in the mire of 'imperfections' . . .

Zero

Jeffrey said:

But then what is perfect.

All of your expectations met.

lobster

All of your expectations met.

Really? Sounds perfectly hellish to me . . .
PS. Sorry I pressed the insightful button in a moment of unmet expectation . . .

taiyaki

Emptiness.

zenmyste

To a villian , a world messed up is perfect!

To a good guy, world peace is perfect!

So for me, true perfection doesnt exist!

Its personal preference!!!!

"They say practice makes perfect, but then again, nobodys perfect so why practice?"

Theswingisyellow

To me perfect is a concept, what is perfect exactly? A subjective notion? Can subjective ideas really speak to or define objective reality? Does it mean this idea is not useful? Probably not, if this ideal, this thing we hold motivates us in our lives and practice. It's an ideal to aspire to, but we must keep in mind there is no such thing and we never arrive there.

Jeffrey

Shunyru Suzuki said in Beginners Mind (is that right title?) that there are no enlightened beings; there is only enlightened activity.

Theswingisyellow

Zen Mind Beginners Mind, good book. I would agree with that statement. Can one hold on to this "enlightened being?" It's grasping at an idea. What are you doing right now-that's in front of you, that's real and so are it's results-enlightened or otherwise.

zenmyste

Everything changes........ Including the enlightened state of mind!

Even if someone was enlightened and 'mastered' all lifes situations, we still never know whats round the corner.. (Everything changes) so what if the enlightened man became ill and got alzheimers, and then started doing crazy things, even became violent towards others (which can happen, ive witnessed it) then WHAT?? Is he still enlightened?????? Id say NOPE!!

A moment can change!
A state of mind can change!
Enlightenment can change!
Everything changes!!!

Jeffrey

Before and after the alzheimers the mind is still clear, luminous, and unimpeded. That doesn't change. All of those things change, but enlightenment has no reference point. Enlightenment neither comes into or out of time and space.

JohnG

Perfection depends on the persons conception of perfection.

Lee82

Perfection implies notion of good/bad and a leaning towards something better. If you live in the present moment then perfection is irrelevant.

I just sat here now and thought "is my life perfect"? What's 'perfect'? I could want something to be better but what good would that be? I'm just sat here and smiling :-)

searching_samsara

"Perfection" has its opposite
Check!
That which is, is One
There can not be 'anything' else

Jeffrey

In the movie Sea biscuit, the horse owner and partial protagonist (who lost his young child) says: "you show me something perfect and I'll show you something that's not".

It's my favorite movie almost.

vinlyn

Or as Dean Martin once put it: "Anything that's perfect ain't to good."

lobster

Examing our experiencing, we categorise. Each moment is flawless as is, until it goes through our discrimative filters.

What is this? Perfect? Dukkha? No really. What is this?
http://mettarefuge.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/some-helpful-suggestions-on-working-with-the-what-is-this-koan/

lamaramadingdong

Perfect is a human concept. It doesn't occur in nature. That's why nature is perfect.