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Re: "I feel that the complete cessation of suffering is possible. If I did not, there would be absolutely no reason for me to practice "
I do find some comfort in beleiving (yeah, buddhism is not about beleifs I hear the chorus, lol) that my practice is good to relieve suffering. Actually, I have experienced that. But I also know that the mundane activities in life, when I practice them mindfully, may not necessarily feel like an alleviating of suffering. And it is not the reason I practice always. i would worry of I felt I needed to have that as my sole motivator for practice. I'd surely fail more miserabley!
I do feel that the moment and the experienceing of that moment with compassion is why I practice. It is not the loftier commitment to end suffering (which I do share). That lofty idea cannot really suistain a practice IMO. Because we are wired to be sense organs with cognitive brains that function on a many levels not just conceptually.
It must be paired with the common sense awareness that actions and thoughts in our practice are just the right thing to do. In many xcases teh kind thing to do. Yes, Hallmark, love is the answer! And thinsg are not really directly about love, practice just makes life reasonable adn I do not doubt my existence etc. Makes sense as a way to live is all.
I struggle with my practice and it is this rightness of practice that keeps me commited. The ideal of elimating suffering . . . I do not really comprehend the totality of what that offers or means. But, even so, I remain commited to a practice simply because nothing else makes sense as a way to live.
I also beleive that this apporach lends itself to a healthier (IMO) attitude to experiencing pleasure. Middle way to me is not one way. That may be a choice avenue to explore for some, but not necessary IMO for awareness.
NO IPOD? Is that a choice of yours KoB? I must say that I am thoroughly attached to mine. I have no desire to give it up at this point. I download Buddhist teachings to mine and listen to them. Plus other really cool stuff.
I would love an mp3 player but cannot insert those earphones into my ears without real discomfort (same reason I don't wear a hearing aid), and I find headphones too obtrusive. I am condemned to listen to the song of the birds and the roar of the traffic.
Well I kinda starting to think it as kind of not-so-nice-to-the-female-spirit...
Heard of Postmodernism the sociological theory before? It's views on the way females are seen throughout the ages are truly unique. They have never been seen as simply just the female, but always a personification of something. What sex is the Statue of Liberty? What has the Mona Lisa been known for? Never the simply female just as the simply male.
Simon, I have not heard of the band before until you mentioned it. Nice! Sadly, though, my idea of the perfect Irish is a "The Corrs"-like instrumental piece of violins, tin whistles and bodhrans.
music influences... brings about emotions.. like some songs make u lonely.. or feel sad.. or angry.. i don't think that in a 'buddhist' sense is actually acceptable because 'buddhists' are meant to be themselves and not meant to induce toxins. Music is a toxin in one sense or another, it creates feeligns and emotional responses that wouldn't normally be there.
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited October 2006
No.... You permit them to arise, because your 'guard' is down... treat them like everything else... an attachment you need not be influenced by....watch and listen, but don't see or hear too intently....
:P seems to kinda destroy the point of listening no?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited October 2006
No, on the contrary... recognising the 'effect' for what it is, is liberating and stimulating, because you can listen or see, safe in the knowledge that there is no effect... just a sensory response that stays at the ear or eye... your mind is alread in Calm Abiding, and you can merely freely 'observe'....even if you are moved or stirred, you merely take a step back in wonderment and amusement. Then move on.
Engaging in any sense perception in a manner which stimulates craving for more is to be abandoned. Contrarily, engaging sense perceptions in a manner which stimulates a craving for sense perceptions to cease is also to be abandoned. Can you simply hear, see, etc. without clinging or shunning? That is non-attachment.
If paticca-samuppada is understood correctly, any form of sense impingement (contact between sense organ and object) will cause pleasant, painful, or neutral feelings to arise in an unenlightened sentient being’s mind. Music, in essence, would simply be the object of hearing.
Therefore, from a Buddhist perspective, there is nothing that makes the thoughts, feelings, and emotions centered on music any more real or substantial than those of anything else. Everything external can (and will) influence our mental state until we break the chain of causality.
I would hardly call music a toxin. It has been proven that younger children who engage in music frequently have better concentration, discipline, and even more intelligence. It worked for me anyway.
People undoubtedly find it strange when they hear I have no I-pod, or Walkman. I have a small CD player but I try to limit how much I listen to it. I find that listening to my favorite music too often loses it's appeal. So about once or twice a week, I put on the local Swing station and listen to the old legends of the 30s and 40s.
People also may find this peculiar in light of the fact that I don't listen to music much, I am a multi-talented musician. I play the Saxophone, Bassoon, Guitar, and possibly the String Bass soon. I can play piano as well. I find though that thinking too much about the music takes away from the effect. Just listen and just be. Playing can be like meditating sometimes.
Music has been an important aspect of our culture and the culture of many other beings for thousands of generations. It is a way of expression. With skill, it becomes a science. To the creative, it is an art. But at it's most profound level, it is an emotion. That's what my Sax teacher says anyways.
I'm rather of my opinion that while words and laws themselves are the language of the left brain, music and art is for the right - even though this is not meant to be the best scientific model (since we would require both brains in speech), but just something I use to compare.
As words themselves are empty of any meaning, not semantically but as in inherently - the attachment to labels such as words of religion cause anguish in the world e.g. God, Faith, Christianity, Islam etc. etc. without a proper thought to what actually they represent.
Art and music, however, seems to be agreed in human thought to be a subjective realm - and thus, it may be unlikely for us to be "attached" to it as having some form of unconditioned meaning, beyond the usual agreements of society and self. Or this could simply be due to the fact that humans decided to adopt language for communication rather than art - even this is not fixed.
I am reminded of Christian music upon seeing the discussion now... I wonder how many churches would simply die out today if not for their modern electric, charged, "Holy Spirit"-inducing music. I do not know if this is of common agreement among us - but I think that in today's youth ministries, a significant part of the experience of the Spirit comes from the music, along with more traditional methods such as mass "hypnosis", exorcism (although I have not seen one in real life), Scripture etc. etc.
As for how art may have done religion an honour/dishonour, I am in no position to comment - but I do believe that religious thought and deeds significantly shape the framework to which I look upon attachment to such "labels" and communication types. :rockon:
Comments
So it's not a problem?
Re: "I feel that the complete cessation of suffering is possible. If I did not, there would be absolutely no reason for me to practice "
I do find some comfort in beleiving (yeah, buddhism is not about beleifs I hear the chorus, lol) that my practice is good to relieve suffering. Actually, I have experienced that. But I also know that the mundane activities in life, when I practice them mindfully, may not necessarily feel like an alleviating of suffering. And it is not the reason I practice always. i would worry of I felt I needed to have that as my sole motivator for practice. I'd surely fail more miserabley!
I do feel that the moment and the experienceing of that moment with compassion is why I practice. It is not the loftier commitment to end suffering (which I do share). That lofty idea cannot really suistain a practice IMO. Because we are wired to be sense organs with cognitive brains that function on a many levels not just conceptually.
It must be paired with the common sense awareness that actions and thoughts in our practice are just the right thing to do. In many xcases teh kind thing to do. Yes, Hallmark, love is the answer! And thinsg are not really directly about love, practice just makes life reasonable adn I do not doubt my existence etc. Makes sense as a way to live is all.
I struggle with my practice and it is this rightness of practice that keeps me commited. The ideal of elimating suffering . . . I do not really comprehend the totality of what that offers or means. But, even so, I remain commited to a practice simply because nothing else makes sense as a way to live.
I also beleive that this apporach lends itself to a healthier (IMO) attitude to experiencing pleasure. Middle way to me is not one way. That may be a choice avenue to explore for some, but not necessary IMO for awareness.
Just my opionion.
Also, nice to see young people here.
Seeing soley others pain and not your own allows you to create a positive atmopshere and try to alleviate even if slightly their suffering.
Realising that all suffering is from the mind, and therefore not real.. and that you in fact have never talked,walked or been embaressed is the way.
to tear apart who you think you are, and flow like water.. and be who you really are. That is to be urself, that is to practise
but i have been thinking of getting an mp3 player to learn other languages.. primarily jap and chinese
What does it mean to falsely induce an emotion? Are there honestly induced emotions?
I understand music (all art) to be communication, including emotion.
Isn't quite sensible to keep it.
I love Music. Currently I'm stuck on Irish tunes!
There are worse things.
If you like Irish tunes, have you come across the Wolf Tones?
http://www.wolfetonesofficialsite.com/
Heard of Postmodernism the sociological theory before? It's views on the way females are seen throughout the ages are truly unique. They have never been seen as simply just the female, but always a personification of something. What sex is the Statue of Liberty? What has the Mona Lisa been known for? Never the simply female just as the simply male.
Simon, I have not heard of the band before until you mentioned it. Nice! Sadly, though, my idea of the perfect Irish is a "The Corrs"-like instrumental piece of violins, tin whistles and bodhrans.
_/\_
metta
If paticca-samuppada is understood correctly, any form of sense impingement (contact between sense organ and object) will cause pleasant, painful, or neutral feelings to arise in an unenlightened sentient being’s mind. Music, in essence, would simply be the object of hearing.
Therefore, from a Buddhist perspective, there is nothing that makes the thoughts, feelings, and emotions centered on music any more real or substantial than those of anything else. Everything external can (and will) influence our mental state until we break the chain of causality.
Regards,
Jason
People undoubtedly find it strange when they hear I have no I-pod, or Walkman. I have a small CD player but I try to limit how much I listen to it. I find that listening to my favorite music too often loses it's appeal. So about once or twice a week, I put on the local Swing station and listen to the old legends of the 30s and 40s.
People also may find this peculiar in light of the fact that I don't listen to music much, I am a multi-talented musician. I play the Saxophone, Bassoon, Guitar, and possibly the String Bass soon. I can play piano as well. I find though that thinking too much about the music takes away from the effect. Just listen and just be. Playing can be like meditating sometimes.
Music has been an important aspect of our culture and the culture of many other beings for thousands of generations. It is a way of expression. With skill, it becomes a science. To the creative, it is an art. But at it's most profound level, it is an emotion. That's what my Sax teacher says anyways.
I'm rather of my opinion that while words and laws themselves are the language of the left brain, music and art is for the right - even though this is not meant to be the best scientific model (since we would require both brains in speech), but just something I use to compare.
As words themselves are empty of any meaning, not semantically but as in inherently - the attachment to labels such as words of religion cause anguish in the world e.g. God, Faith, Christianity, Islam etc. etc. without a proper thought to what actually they represent.
Art and music, however, seems to be agreed in human thought to be a subjective realm - and thus, it may be unlikely for us to be "attached" to it as having some form of unconditioned meaning, beyond the usual agreements of society and self. Or this could simply be due to the fact that humans decided to adopt language for communication rather than art - even this is not fixed.
I am reminded of Christian music upon seeing the discussion now... I wonder how many churches would simply die out today if not for their modern electric, charged, "Holy Spirit"-inducing music. I do not know if this is of common agreement among us - but I think that in today's youth ministries, a significant part of the experience of the Spirit comes from the music, along with more traditional methods such as mass "hypnosis", exorcism (although I have not seen one in real life), Scripture etc. etc.
As for how art may have done religion an honour/dishonour, I am in no position to comment - but I do believe that religious thought and deeds significantly shape the framework to which I look upon attachment to such "labels" and communication types. :rockon: