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Craving Sensual Pleasure
One of the causes of our suffering according to Buddhism is our craving for sensual pleasure. I can see this in a way. Wanting something bad enough takes you away from the moment and can hurt others if we are not careful. But you can't just not want sensual pleasures. Those desires don't just go away because you want them to.
So how does one respond to the cravings of the sexual nature. Being a teenager, one especially has to deal with these more intensely one way or another.
Now I used to have a very guilty counscious on these matters. In my early teens, such thoughts would arise in my mind and I would try to repress them with prayer to God to keep the Devil at bay. Well, eventually, I gave up on that and realized that repression never worked. So I gave in to the thoughts and acted out on them, (by myself I mean:tongue2: ) lost my faith eventually, and am a much calmer person being able to fullfill certain sensual desires. And yes I would say that I am attached to it. I don't see the problem in it. It boosts happiness and self-esteem and does not cause suffering. I know in a way it is like living in a fantasy world and ignoring reality, but there are really no negative side effects of 'giving in'. I abstained from it for a while back in the summer to see the affects, and found myself more agitated, angrier, and emotionally fragile. When I ended that scharade, my sense of happiness and calm returned.
So how does one find a middle way on sexual thoughts? My personal acts pertaining to this might dwell slightly in the excess, but if it doesn't hurt myself or others, nothing is really lost. Thoughts???
So how does one respond to the cravings of the sexual nature. Being a teenager, one especially has to deal with these more intensely one way or another.
Now I used to have a very guilty counscious on these matters. In my early teens, such thoughts would arise in my mind and I would try to repress them with prayer to God to keep the Devil at bay. Well, eventually, I gave up on that and realized that repression never worked. So I gave in to the thoughts and acted out on them, (by myself I mean:tongue2: ) lost my faith eventually, and am a much calmer person being able to fullfill certain sensual desires. And yes I would say that I am attached to it. I don't see the problem in it. It boosts happiness and self-esteem and does not cause suffering. I know in a way it is like living in a fantasy world and ignoring reality, but there are really no negative side effects of 'giving in'. I abstained from it for a while back in the summer to see the affects, and found myself more agitated, angrier, and emotionally fragile. When I ended that scharade, my sense of happiness and calm returned.
So how does one find a middle way on sexual thoughts? My personal acts pertaining to this might dwell slightly in the excess, but if it doesn't hurt myself or others, nothing is really lost. Thoughts???
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Comments
Oh yea, what made you start to realize that "self-satisfying" yourself was right, besdies the religion aspect (of not believing)?
"Self-satisfy" = masturbation
Just for the people who don't know.
While glutting oneself on sensual pleasure is not what I would consider part of the "Middle Way," I draw a definite distinction between the urge to have sex and eat food, and the urge to smoke cigarettes and shoot up heroin, you dig? The Buddha had already experimented, and rejected, extreme self-mortification at the time of his enlightenment. This is why, I think, there is a sort of ritual aspect to mealtimes, as a way of reminding us that meals are part of our practice, and we should be mindful and not eat an entire Christmas turkey and box of Twinkies at one sitting.
Now, as for masturbation, I consider it a natural practice for a healthy sex life, and you're not the only mammal, or the only ape, that does it. As long as you're not sitting there for 8 hour marathon sessions while the boss is wondering where you're at, I doubt it will present much of a problem for you. Christianity may have a problem with it, but they've pretty much had a problematic relationship with sexuality, and with nature in general since way before the Puritans, don't listen to their BS. My 2 cents.
Parent - "Why is nobody at the Ferris Wheel?"
Disgruntled employee - "Oh, he is masturbating in the bathroom!"
Parent - "Oh, when will he be back because I cannot wait here for more than two hours."
Disgruntled employee - " Why don't you ride something else?"
Parent - "I can wait for him to stop "varnishing the banister""
Disgruntled employee - "Whatever!"
Disgruntled (higher up) employee - "Who is varnishing his banister?"
As you can tell I love my job, not enough to masturbate at, but...maybe on a slow day...
Disgruntled dishwasher - "We need those dishes now!"
Knight of Buddah - "Hold on, I need to add the creme filling to this pastry!"
Disgruntled dishwasher - "Well, be quick with it, that is the next meal!"
These are good questions and it's very good to start asking them at your age.
Masturbation IS a completely natural thing, as is eating, hugging, smelling nice aromas, touching soft fabric and seeing beautiful things. The Buddha knew very well that a beginner to this path would not be able to stop themselves from feeling and enjoying sensual pleasures nor could a beginner stop themselves from feeling, hearing, smelling and seeing awful things. That's why he doesn't command us to stop apprehending our physical environments. In fact, he doesn't command us to do, or not do, anything. I think this may be why your question arises.
Many of us here were born and raised in a Christian context, understanding and world view. In this context we followed commandments, laws, dictates from God. When a human is indoctrinated from birth into any belief system it becomes very, very difficult to leave it behind. Our minds and hearts may change but there will be residue left over that will creep into our new understanding and it usually creeps in at the ground level. One of the hardest parts of understanding Buddhism for a Westerner is learning how to think like the Buddha because we've been completely conditioned to think in a Christian context.
When I first started down this path I noticed how often I stumbled because of the way I thought about the Noble Eightfold Path and the Five Precepts. I kept thinking of them in terms of "oughts" and "ought nots", "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" in a simplistic and morally judgmental way. It was very difficult for me, and it still is, to view the Buddha's teachings in a non self-judgmental way. Sometimes I hit the nail right on the head and I know I have because I feel like an adult in every way. But most often I fall short and I know this because I feel like a wayward child. I can be very condescending to myself. lol!
My long winded point is that the Buddha wanted us to follow a tried and tested path in order for us to wake up from this dream we are living and he wanted this out of his compassion for us. Waking up is the big picture. So when he outlined the pitfalls in human life and the things that keep us in our slumber he did so in order for us to take notice and to pay attention and finally, to wake up. He did not want us to blindly follow dictates because that would lead nowhere. He wanted us to know these pitfalls and having inevitably experienced them to one degree or another, experientially understand to our own full satisfaction to what extent they were harmful to ourselves and to others. Only then would it be possible for us to leave them behind. Only after seeing, feeling, hearing, tasting, knowing and understanding them are we able to let them go. Do you see what I'm getting at? It's a fairly subtle difference in the way we normally would view precepts and Right anything. As Genryu pointed out a while ago, the Buddha didn't say "come and believe", he said "come and see for yourself".
You can't let go of these sensual pleasures until you have experienced them, analyzed them and understood to your own full satisfaction to what extent they are harmful to yourself and to others. And harmful can mean deadly, as in killing, or unhelpful, as in whatever prevents us from waking up.
So that's why I'm glad that you're asking these questions because that's exactly what the Buddha advised us to do.
This is a very good question, and it is one that is often avoided. Many will disagree with me, but if you look to the Buddha's teachings, there is nothing skillful in giving in to sensual desires—including sexual ones. As a lay-follower, you are not required to remain celibate; however, sex and masturbation do nothing for spiritual awakening.
While it might be true that acting on these desires temporarily relieves the symptoms associated with them (lust, agitation, et cetera), and that they are natural to the human condition, Buddhism does not encourage the casual fulfillment of our sensual desires—it encourages their eventual abandonment. Sexual lust is one of the ten fetters.
One of the problems that lay-followers often have is that their meditation practice is lacking. When one attains deep states of meditation, not only are these types of desires subdued, but one also gains a pleasure that is more refined and blissful than any orgasm. Until then, it is extremely difficult to deal with sexual thoughts and desires.
Jason
I disagree with you about going to school, work, trash--these are the place for spiritual awakening! It is is preciscely because we do all these things day in and day out that this is the training ground for awakening. Where else would they be?
Following on Jason's coattails:
I've also been a student of many different spiritual practices and traditions. In nearly every "mystical" tradition--that is--where the individual has a personal experience of the divine, sexual abstinence is pre-requisite for attaining these experiences. While Buddhism is not a mystical tradition, this is something that it shares with theistic traditions. This is not to say that every spiritual tradition forbids sex or sexual gratification, but that some experiences are not possible while 'living in the world' in this particular way.
In my knowledge of such things, which is not exhaustive, the evidence is overwhelming--there must be something quite absorbing about sexual experience that 'fetters' us spiritually.
I spent a lot of years trying to come to terms with 'being celebate' which mixed me up quite a bit. Over time, I've let all that go. I had a realization that my spiritual path involves living an engaged life like any other--including sexual desire--but I constantly come back to the knowledge that while I am not my actions, who I become moment by moment is a result of them.
That is true, but it seems to me that you are simply justifying something you are unsure of doing for whatever reason. Perhaps some of this stems from your Christian upbringing. All I am trying to do is offer a Buddhist perspective to this question. As such, it is not a sin to masturbate, but giving in to these desires actually strengthens them. The more we act upon them, the more habitual they come.
Sexual lust especially is very important in that it is one of the ten fetters—one of the bonds that keep beings trapped in the endless round of rebirth. Sexual lust itself is only weakened when one becomes a Once-returner, and complete abandoned when one becomes a Non-returner. I suppose for those that disbelieve in the Buddha’s teachings on rebirth, you might be relieved by hearing this, thinking you are in the clear. However, until we are free from all of the ten fetters, we will never be completely free from suffering.
If you chose to have sex or masturbate, you are more than free to do so as long as you do so responsibly, but keep in mind that sexual desires are not wholesome desires in and of themselves—even though they come naturally. They are essentially very strong, intense bonds that keep us tied to the wheel of existence until we are able to cut those bonds by direct insight into the Four Noble Truths.
Jason
I agree!
Adiana:usflag:
I have a very high level of awareness. I do mindful walking as much as I can around the neighborhood. I don't feel that these desires are any hindrance to my spritual life. If anything in this life, it is Right Action that counts the most. I treat myself and others well. What I do alone to relieve stress of a busy life has no effect on my actions really.
Anyone ever seen the Seinfield episode "The Contest" from season 4? It is all about sexual desires and who the gang deals with them. By far the greatest episode.
If there is no attachment to the sight, smell, taste, and texture of the food (if it is just eaten for sustenance of the body), then no, eating food will not tie one to the wheel of existence. If there is attachment to the sight, smell, taste, and texture of the food (if it is eaten for more than just sustenance of the body), then yes, eating food tie one to the wheel of existence as it is a form of sensuous craving.
Jason
I simply disagree; I feel that the complete cessation of suffering is possible. If I did not, there would be absolutely no reason for me to practice as I could indulge my sensual desires endlessly until I died with no hope of escape since all that was possible was mere appeasement. I do not find that a very attractive scenario as I have spent a great deal of my life doing just that, and it did not give me any real happiness.
I am very happy, however, to hear that you find the encouragement to practice even without the hope of achieving an end to suffering. It is certainly not necessary to start out this spiritual journey with such conviction, but perhaps in time, your practice will eventually lead to you that possibility. Nevertheless, try not to let your desires blind you to their true nature. The whole Path has eight elements for a reason, not just one.
Jason
Detachment is not disassociation, and to detach one’s self from their sexual unfolding is a form of disassociation.
At root, our sexuality is a life koan that present no immediate solution but holds ongoing resolution if we remain aware and do not cling to any ideas about sex.
Our sexual being holds within it resolution as direct experience. Each of us contains the potential for resolution and responsible sexual conduct as a process of self-discovery and self-realization.
Realization is within each of us as a process of being and consciousness which does not cling to sutras, teachings, sacred texts, rules, or laws. This assertion of mine is difficult to realize - East and West as well as North and South usually cannot grasp it because few see realization as a process of being.
You can do whatever you like. Go for it! Just keep in mind that what you experience now as 'release' or whatever may not always make you as happy in the future. You'll find that out for yourself.
Elohim's posts in no way reprimand nor condone your behavior. Just because you don't like what he says doesn't make it less true. In his posts, Elohim never uses ad hominem attacks on another's actions or views. He has a very clear, very firm voice that articulates his knowledge of the path by reference to textual evidence. If you don't like the Buddhist perspective he offers, don't ask.
Don't get me wrong--you're a good member. You post interesting stuff. I'm irked that Elohim's posts seem to be interpreted as attacks rather than as turning the wheel.
Anyone heard Shunryu Suzuki's saying: "If the teaching doesn't feel like it's forcing something upon you, it's not good teaching."
Of course, this is much more than an intellectual exercise. You have to actually experience it. Or so I've been told...
Palzang
You are correct in that I was not condoning nor reprimanding his behavior, I was simply offering what the teachings I am familiar with have to say on the matter. When I state them so factually, that is because they are actual teachings that have been preserved for 2,600 years—or so they say.
I actually do not see anyone's responses as attacks as much as I see them being very opinionated. It is often the case that if something disagrees with our present view, or if something suggests that we should refrain from things that we enjoy, we can become quite defensive—but this is natural. I reacted much the same way when I first became interested in the Buddha's teachings. To me, they seemed like they we suggested I abandon everything that makes sense to me, and give up all of my pleasures for absolutely no reason other than some guy 2,600 years ago said so.
I think that a great deal of this is due to the power our defilements have over our minds, and subsequently our thinking processes. Inevitably, there will be an enormous amount of resistance to ideas such as our sexual lust might eventually have to be abandoned at some point along the way. If we take the teachings on rebirth seriously, we will see that our defilements have had their way with us for countless lifetimes. It is not too far fetched to believe that their grip on sensual experiences is anything but iron-tight, and that it will take an equally strong discernment to pry us free.
The bottom line is that all I am trying to do is to help point the way to that discernment. The Buddha taught his followers to study his discourses as well as practice meditation. These teachings are there for us to utilize if we only give them a chance to show us what they are capable of doing.
Sincerely yours,
Jason
I agree. That is why I enjoy this forum so much. I don't interpret anyone's posts as attacks and I sincerely hope none of mine are taken as such. No intention is made of doing so.
Of course the whole point of my posting on this subject was to better understand the Buddhist perspective dealing particularly with the 2nd Noble Truth. Keep in mind I am a teenager, and get excited about certain issues like this. No pun intended. So I apologize if any of my previous posts came out as overly defenseive.
If you are interested in a more detailed look at the link between craving and sexuality, and what the Buddha had to say concerning sexual practices in relation to Awakening, please read this short article written by Ajahn Brahmavamso and Ajahn Nanadhammo entitled Buddhist Sexual Ethics - A Rejoinder:
I would just like to add that this should not be taken as an absolute rejection of sex as it mainly pertains to monastics who have gone forth, however, it does go to show that sexual practices are ultimately a hindrance to Awakening for those of us that are interested in perusing the Path the very end of suffering.
Sincerely,
Jason
Please correct me if I'm mistaken, Elohim or whomever, but in the Pali Cannon arhantship is the goal wherein outward renunciation reflects inward renunciation whose primary goal is 'nibbana'. I'd be curious to hear about member's ideas with the ideals of the 'householder' or, using a somewhat more pallid expression, of the 'lay' practitioner.
After all, Vimalakirti was supposedly a 'lay' or 'householder' who also achieved enlightenment. If practice is practice, what difference does it make? Or is this a Mahayana/Thervadin/Vajrayana sectarian thing?
Palzang
The goal in Theravada Buddhism is Nibbana. While achieving Nibbana as a lay-follower is possible, it is much easier in a monastic setting. As a lay-follower, you are following the bare minimum when it comes to precepts; while as a monastic, you are following the maximum when it comes to the precepts. This alone is quite an advantage for countless reasons. Without a strong foundation of virtue, one will not be able to attain deep states of meditation. Without attaining deep states of meditation, the five hindrances will not be temporarily subdued. Without the five hindrances being temporarily subdued, insight will not be able to arise. Without the arising of insight, there can be no liberation. Monastic life provides that solid foundation of virtue.
While I do not completely understand your question, I should just like to clarify that one does not have to act in a certain way to show that they are an arahant, but once ignorance has been uprooted, one will no longer act in certain ways because they are simply incapable of doing so. I think one difference between lay and monastic practice is how much of a chaperone one needs. Ajahn Mun once said, "Virtue — normalcy — is like rock, which is solid and forms the basis of the ground. No matter how much the wind may buffet and blow, rock doesn't waver or flinch." Some people lack strong mindfulness, and need to be constantly reminded of their actions; while others are more mindful and do not necessarily need a more formalized practice.
Sincerely,
Jason
But it looks as though the monastic life won't be possible due to my physical disability so I'm left with the fervent desire to live and breath and practice the buddhadharma with no place to go. lol!
So I decided that I would live as closely as I could to the monastic ideal without actually being ordained, including practicing chastity (can you really practice that? lol!). Perhaps at some point in the future I'll get better and be able to make the journey to Gampo but in the meantime I consider myself on semi-retreat, living a very simple life, unmarried and childless, caring for my folks as they grow old with lots and lots of time on my hands to read, study and practice. And I'm very content and satisfied with the way my life has worked out. I can't tell you how far I've already come in the short time I've been practicing and a lot of that is due to the fact that I have this forum to come to. I've been set straight many, many times here. I've been supported and inspired and pulled out of the muck many, many times here. Talk about good companionship being the whole of the holy life!! lol!!
Like many people coming to Buddhism one of the first things that hit me right between the eyes was the level to which I was addicted to sensual pleasure, usually as a technique of avoidance. I had never analyzed this before in my life and it came as a breathtaking shock. I used everything to avoid myself. And I mean everything. From the time I could read I started using books to escape. I used swimming, music, food, TV, movies, work (especially work), drugs, alcohol, sex, school, relationships, travel, make-up and clothes, celebrity gossip and so on and so on. Pretty much everything I did I did to avoid being with myself. I always loved to be alone but I was always doing something when I was alone. Usually two or three things, actually. Multitasking. And it wasn't until I was forced to stop doing anything that I realized my entire life was going by as one big blur.
When I came to Buddhism I was so completely fed up with suffering and so desperate to get out that I was ready. There is no way on earth that I would have been ready for this path when I was in my teens. Not unless I'd had the good fortune to have been brought up to be a monastic. I had to come to the end of my rope in order to be willing to walk this path full on.
But Good Sir Knight, I will tell you something that I wish someone had told me when I was a teenager. Happiness may very well be the goal of life but no amount of sensual gratification will ever, ever make you truly happy. Sensual pleasure is like material wealth and sugar; the more you have the more you want. It feeds off itself like everything else. It brings momentary distraction and pleasure and when it goes it leaves you wanting more. That's it's nature.
The way to happiness is not through sensual pleasure but through the well trained mind. I know that doesn't sound very exciting or sexy but there it is. Buddhism is not a very sexy path. But if it's happiness you're after, following in the footsteps of the Buddha will get you there. Whenever you're ready...
Anyway, compared to many of the kids at my school, I am much more content with my life. I must be the last teenager without a cell phone. I don't need an i-Pod. Don't need a fancy car, drugs, alcohol. I don't base my life on the prospect of getting a girlfriend. I enjoy the friends I have, I laugh a lot, and I consider myself very happy.
I do know some very rich kids at my school. But none of them that I have met are really that happy. They complain a lot and don't seem to enjoy anything they have.
Like I said I am a very happy person. I differentiate between pleasure and happiness. Yes I think they are very different. I think that if I stress moderation in the pleasures of life, it won't have to interfere with happiness. It hasn't at least.
PM me!
regards,
Xray
DISCLAIMER: I was the worst "walkman" abuser when Cliff Richard came out with Wired For Sound!-yes I'm a geek and a nerd. Good song though....
Thanks for indulging me....memories from Wales. lol!
No need to blush, Xray. We're all addicted to something, all of us. We're all trying to avoid facing up to reality by seeking out pleasurable experiences of some sort, aren't we?
Having this problem with my back and being challenged with the pain of it has really forced me to wake up to my tendencies to seek out pleasure, especially with things like chocolate or honey. I give myself permission to over indulge by telling myself that I need some comfort from the pain. I still do this, even when I'm fully aware that I'm doing it and that it's unhealthy and unhelpful. And that goes doubly for the cigarettes. There are times when I'm just one big craving. But at least now I'm more aware of it and I'm actually watching it and looking for ways to change how I view things. This is where meditation has really, really helped me because I get to a point where I think that I actually need these comforts but through meditation I'm starting to see that lie for what it actually is and I'm starting to see that I actually don't need any of it, at all. They're empty comforts keeping me in my slumber. I'm forcing myself to stay asleep by depending on them.
It's all very interesting....
And yes, Xray, I think the iPod is the same kind of thing, too.
MN10, Satipatthana Sutta, The Reflection on the Repulsiveness of the Body
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.nysa.html
This post is very inspiring. You are a very rare teenager KOB, it's amazing how much you have not bothered with materialism when surrounded by the whole pressure of it. If you don't mind me asking, how well do you do in school? Do you enjoy it?
I do well enough. Around a 3.7 GPA or so. I like to learn, but not necessarily what I am taught. I enjoy history and music and anything practical (so that excludes Math). I enjoy what goes on in school. The friends aspect of it at least. The rest is just boring and useless.
Not bad! Keep it up. Hopefully others around you might take some of what you do to heart and do well for themselves as well.
Oh, that would be the life...
Palzang
Whoah, whoah whoah, the IPOD thing is to far! I dunno what I'd do without it, except carry around millions of cd's... I love my IPOD!
I think I have a tickling fetishism, but not anything of the sexual kind. It's that kind of (well it's sadistic, although the victim usually asks for it herself and hones great fun) fetish where if someone walks up to you and gives you a choice of watching someone (a girl, though) being tickled or not (VOLUNTARILY), I would just say "Why not?", although I'd also confess to watching (clean) tickling videos on YouTube. It nets me kind of a passive comfort... If you once had a non-sexual fetish perhaps you'd know what I meant.
Hmmm... Is it anything not-so-nice here? :vimp:
Good for you. Many people have desires that they would not admit to. (Maybe even one or two here!-shock horror!)
If it makes you feel good and there is no harm in it to others, then whatever floats your boat!
Just don't get addicted to it....:zombie: