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Would Buddha believe in therapy?
I was having a conversation with a friend last night. We got onto the subject that most of the Americans that we know are in therepy or on some type of medication. We were wondering, why so many people now? Was it always like this? Then I satrted to talk about Buddhism and the whole cessation of suffering to reach enlightenment or even happiness for that matter. This made me wonder if you are taking medication for anxiety or OCD or ADD does that affect your stream to your feeling of suffering? Do you think Buddha would have prescribed meds? any thoughts...
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As a recovering addict I have been asked many times " if you could take a pill so you would not be an alcoholic anymore, would you?" "why" I ask "well, so you can drink again"
^gassho^
Buddha WAS a therapist. nearly all psychology, counselling and analysis is based on buddhism. As far as I can judge from my own experiences, that is. I studied psychology for five years, and have had a stint as a counsellor.
The depression I was referring to is one that affects - or is the main manifested symptom of - a person whi is actually classified as mentally ill. Their brains are badly wired, if you like; as in someone with Bi-polar depression, for example. Often, a childhood experience may trigger this, but the 'disease' does not surface - and is therefore not diagnosed - until well into adulthood. there are others who may be scihzophrenic, or delusional. I don't know enough about severe mental illness to make further comment, but that's the difference. I would imagine that the people who are classified as being medically Mentally Ill would have a problem reaching enlightenment. But that's just my view on it.
I don't know what 'OCD' is, so I'll have to stop there.... I was just (rather verbally!!) explaining my comment above!
Verballiciously I might add
You may be right as to a person not being able to be enlightened if they have a mental disorder. It seems so final to me. There has to be a loophole :banghead:
15 minutes later:
I have further just checked on the internet.... OCD is it seems, in the majority of cases a psychological disorder which need not in fact be associated with any trigger or trauma... it may be due to the 'bad wiring' I've mentioned before. But the distress is just as real, if perhaps now, not even more so..... Excuse my error.
It seems that in the western world there are so many things that distract our minds; cell phones, television, internet, the list goes on for days. So in order to keep up with everything, people have become masters at multitasking. And in result, it comes as no surprise that people have trouble sitting still and focusing their attention on one thing at a time.
But, is a pill really the only solution? I believe that a lot of these medications actually make the condition worse by encouraging a pseudo method of problem solving (concealing vs. dealing). Consequentially, the individual becomes dependent on medications as a quick fix. I have a lot of friends and family who have fallen victim to this trap. They adopt the western philosophy of convenience, not fully understanding it only serves as temporary relief. You can’t trick your mind forever, sooner or later it will catch on to you.
Sometimes I wish I could just introduce them to Buddhism. I know that it would provide much more relief to their suffering then medication ever will.
Maria did you go to Change your mind day in Central Park today? I had to work and couldnt get off but I so wanted to be there.
Psychologists work with the patient to understand their disorder and how to cope. There are those that are truly in need of medication and therapy. Manic Depression/Bi-Polar, Schizophrenia, Severe OCD or ADD/ADHD.
Being new to this group maybe I can lend a different view. I suffer from Panic Attacks. There are 2 kinds. One mimics the feeling of a heart attack almost exactly, the other is harder to describe and the one I suffer from. It is like your mind suddenly feels like it is losing control. You feel very weird and the feeling makes you think you are losing control of yourself. To everyone else you look completely normal, but inside you are freaking out.
You swear that it is a physical problem and spend time at a lot of doctors convinced you have a disease because there is no way your mind could play these tricks on you. Finally one day you are convinced after a clean bill of health that you must seek therapy.
I suffered silently on and off for 2 years in the fear of when and where I would be when a panic attack would come on. While I still went to work and did my normal routine I was worried about these attacks.
I have been seeing a Psychologist for 4 years now. I was put on very mild tranquilizers to stop the panic attacks and to learn controlled breathing and to understand why these happen. Since taking the medication (knock on wood) I have not had one panic attack. Because of this I was able to work through other issues or problems in my life that hindered me in the past. My therapist believes in meditation as a wonderful tool in relieving stress and helps with panic. In a clinical sense he has taught me meditation on the basic level.
Sorry if this is too much information, but I now live a happier life, enjoy intimacy with my husband, have made it through Menopause (I went through it early), I have gone back to college, I am learning the art of belly dancing, and searching out Buddhism. I would not be doing this had I not sought help. I have found greater clarity and focus in my life and to me the little bit of medication I have to take every day is well worth not ever having another panic attack again.
Casthinker
It is hard to compare todays supposed increase in illness with those of years ago. Remember, there was a time when you did not talk about or admit such things as people would judge you. If you talked about certain medical, family, or marital problems society shunned you, put you in an institution, or made you the brunt of public humiliation.
Ok, I am done now, thanks for listening....
A mind is a terrible thing to have no control over.
There are those however, that without antideppressant medications and such would have no control over their mind. For people that truly have a "mis-wiring" as Frederica eloquently put it, medication helps those people to lead a normal life.
All medications can have value if used for the right reason. Take antiobiotics for instance; if they had never been invented or used masses of people would have died for no reason. The problem that comes in to play is that some doctors prescribe antibiotics for colds and flu when we all know that antibiotics only attack bacteria infections not viral infections.
Even people who take natural remedies are taking medication. Some just have less side effects than others.
The key to remember here is that you need to be in control of your health care. Research the condition and become as informed as possible. Find a good doctor that is willing to listen and work with you. Find out the side effects of the medications and alternative measures and then making the right decision will be easy.
I think anyone can find nirvana if they learn the path to take and want to apply themseleves medication or not. Of course I am but one single opinion in the infinite mass.
The world in general is over-medicated. This is a testimony to just how powerful pharmaceutical companies are! Herbal remedies and supplements have been outlawed here in Europe, and you can't even grow herbs in your garden for medicinal use by others. You can't advertise their efficacy, you can't recommend them to anyone for treating anything (like cystitis, or PMS...) and this is because the huge pharmaceutical companies have seen just how popular these supplements have become, twisted the arm of the European government, and had them banned, under the pretense that all these things haven't been proven, they're dangerous, and clinical trials are needed! They have conveniently skipped over the fact that a high proportion of medication prescribed today has its' origins in herbal remedies.... they just want a slice of the action. In a few years' time, they'll market all this stuff under brand new clinically tested names, and sell them for a vast profit. I'm glad to say the UK is challenging the Court's ruling... but here in France....'oh, boy!' It's unusual... france usually palys truant, but it's the German government who has pushed for this,a nd in many ways, France & Germany are collaborators in a lot of things....
My Mother was sitting outside the Doctor's surgery, in Italy, where she lives, waiting for a prescription for my dad's heart condition (digitalis being the base ingredient!! I rest my case!!) and there was a pharmaceutical rep. in the waiting room.
Doctor's door opens. patient emerges.
Rep. Stands up and asks -
"So, how much 'dah-de-dah' have you prescribed this week?" (name of drug unknown, but insert your own over-prescribed brand - !!)
"Oh, about four prescriptions...." replies the doctor.
"Oh, no, no, no, no, no, that's way too little! You need to aim for at least ten prescriptions a week - "
"Yes!" My mother interjected, looking straight at the doctor, "and the next time you get that wonderful holiday in the Seychelles, remember the patients who sent you there!"
Door closes, Doctor at least has the decency to look embarassed. You see, he's just come back from a three-week fully paid holiday in Tunisia.....
I think that Buddhism, being the way of the middle path, really wouldn't be for nor against therapy. It's individual. If perfect balance existed, I believe it would be unnecessary, but as we all know...we're not all in perfect balance (of course implying that there are some that may be)!
I think it's important for people (especially American's/Westerners) to dig deeper than they tend to. As life is suffering, we tend to immediately want to blame someone else for our suffering (thus lessoning our guilt!), and if someone is willing to give us pills, then we have somewhere to place the blame that is not 'us'! It's amazing just how far this concept can be carried, and to what point. This doesn't apply to just therapy, it applies to almost everything in most Western society! I'll leave it at that for now, but ...think on it.
Naetuir (aka Chris)
PS: By way of introduction, I am/was a protestant christian (non-denominational), but at this point consider myself more of a theist with very Buddhist tendencies. I'm learning more about Buddhism at this point, but don't really care to label myself with a specific religion or ideology right now... as I find most to have at least some distasteful bits. I've really enjoyed reading what you guys have had to say on Christianity vs Buddhism as well.
I firmly believe that you have to be in control of your health and an active participant in the decisions regarding therapy, surgery, medication, etc... The more educated you are the better off you will be in the end.
To Frederica's reply I am surprised that Europe (or parts there of) is banning herbal remedies. I really though America was the only one poo-pooing the idea because it did not make drug companies the big $$$$. I thought we were the least forward thinking of all the countries unless there was money to be made.
All I can say is it is up to each individual to make the choice that is right for them and to hope that everything works out for the best.
Not always true. Sometimes too much wrong information sways you into making the wrong decision.
"The only true knowledge comes from knowing that you no nothing" - Socrates
(And yes I do appreciate the irony of criticising over intellectualisation with a Socrates quote!)
Just think of it this way:
It's my non answer.
It is not merely a question of understanding the four noble Truths, but of believing them also, and completely accepting them as the foundation of your practise. These three are essential.
When someone reaches a level of depression which would serve to obscure understanding, believing and accepting - pretty much nothing is going to work! It is debatable whether personal mental discipline would work or not. Without drugs certainly, it would be a far greater uphill struggle. In some cases, drugs may not be necessary. In others, they may be vital. It depends on so many factors.... but in all cases, it's the underlying cause that needs addressing, not the symptom/manifestation of the depression itself. And the road to that discovery - to the cause - can be long, arduous, painful and extremely challenging. But each journey begins with a simple step; it's up to the individual whether to begin it through study, or medication....
I've known people with some serious mental problems. I lived with a lady who was bipolar and alcoholic (she lived with me and my mom). Without meds she was a total wreck. Regular counseling wasn't enough because she wasn't anywhere near the state of mind where she could really listen to others or even herself. When she was on the right pills, she was very different. She was finally able to take a look at what was going on. Fortunately, she has been doing much better, but it's been a long road. I don't think she'd be where she is without medical help. While pills aren't enough fix problems like she had, they do get some people to the point where they can receive help. In other words, in severe cases both medication and counseling are necessary.
However, I do believe that there are many cases where pills are used and they aren't necessary. People are so scared of their emotions. Many don't know how to deal with intense feelings, so they try to dull it with pills, alcohol, food, or other temporary fixes that then become addictions.
In summary, based on my past experiences, I would say that:
1. Counseling is great and more people should see a counselor - especially before trying other treatments. I see little harm in that unless you get a total nutjob for a doctor.
2. Sometimes medications are necessary for people who have serious problems, people who are so @#$!ed up that they need to get where counseling can help. I don't think meds are the answer, just what will get them ready for the answer - counseling and introspection. Therefore, I don't think people should be just put on meds without accompanying counseling.
Anyways, that's my two cents. More like $1, but I won't charge you
Without wishing to rant about food additives, processing, antibiotics in cattle, pollution, GMOs, it does seem to me that the air we breathe, the water we drink and the food that we eat, being transformed into the fuel to drive the body, will act in certain ways. When we brought in legislation taking us over to unleaded petrol, cars had to be adapted. But I wonder if our bodies are capable of adapting to all the new chemicals.
All through my years as a psychotherapist and counsellor, it was clear to me that, unless a person had the capacity and resources to respond, talk therapy or meditation or anything were useless until they were stabilised. That we should be some way from perfectlu titrated medication and diet regimens may be true but we must do the best we can with the tools to hand.
IMHO, it is arrogant and lacks compassion to refuse or fail to offer a competent person such medication as may help establish an appropriate chemical balance.
The old dictum of Mens sana in corpore sano[/o] could have been written by a Buddhist!
Secondly, I have been following this thread for some time and I agree with some replies and disagree with other ones. This is normal for me. So, I will offer my two cents on this topic. Here goes!
I have been a recovering alcoholic for seven years in July so I attend AA meetings and do what I need to do to stay sober, I have severe ADHD and for that, I take Strattera---a non-stimulant medication that really helps me to focus, and, for added fun, I also suffer from Cyclothymic Personality Disorder. CPD is a milder form of manic-depression (Bi-Polar). I have no control over my moods---none! My moods change sometimes from minute to minute or it seems like it to me anyway and I hate it! But, I have found that with the proper combination of medications (For me, Serequel and EffexorXR), and by undergoing therapy sessions with my P-doc, that I can get a better grip on my moods and they don't fluctuate as much as long as I take my meds and continue with therapy sessions. To me, the choice is simple: I choose to take my medications and undergo therapy as well as do the other things necessary for me to be a functioning member of society. As someone else posted, people should do what is right for them and helps them to stabilize or whatever they need to do to feel okay as long as it does not harm themselves or anyone else and not to worry about what others think that don't understand or have mental problems. By posting this, I do not mean to be perceived as being rude to anyone; this is simply my own point of view. Personally, I think that since Buddhism teaches us that we are responsible for our own actions, that it is up to us to decide what course of action is right for us and only us. Also, to enlist the help of specialists, doctors, or whomever or whatever that may be able to help us is also a sign of being willing to take the steps necessary in order to achieve enlightenment about ourselves.
Adiana
I have relished in your accounts, Adiana, Darmakitten, Abaruby, and simonthepilgrim. I believe only those who have a disorder or worked with those who have, (for lack of a better term) can truly understand what is trying to be explained.
All that can be asked is to not pass judgement on those if you have not also walked in their shoes. I feel that this has been a great thread, rather cleansing I think!!
I believe it is true that Buddhism is the original "psychotherapy." Many contemporary therapy traditions in fact have borrowed from Buddhism, not the least of which is the psychodynamic (aka "Freudian" in older parlance: though not everyone who is psychodynamic is Freudian nowadays). Freud's whole concept of the conscious, preconscious, and unconscious components of the mind are very similar to the Buddhist concept of seeds, and that what you water (via consumption) is what you grow. Carl Jung also explored many other more esoteric concepts within Buddhist thinking and tradition.
I do believe very strongly that Buddhism is compatible with psychotherapy. Also consider the bodhisattva tradition, or, the tradition of deep listening to provide relief of suffering. Part of why therapy works is because you have to listen to yourself; that sounds like an awful lot like meditation in many respects, and in fact it is, in my expereience. The therapist can help you to see what misconceptions and misunderstandings are occluding your ability to see a reality: your reality, or someone else's, to be certain. It is my belief that good therapy helps you see your own truth.
Medication certainly has its place. I like to think of it like type I and type II diabetes, if you will. People with type II diabetes can manage their symptoms through lifestyle and dietary changes, often precluding the need for medication. Some kinds of mental health issues/illnesses can follow this course. However, other illnesses are like type I diabetes: if your body doesn't manufacture insulin, all the dietary changes in the universe aren't going to make insulin. I could sit here and talk to a pancreas all day and all night; if it can't make insulin it ain't gonna happen. While I agree that medication is much too freely prescribed, largely because PCPs do too much prescribing with too little knowledge, some people need meds. And there's not a thing wrong with that: that's the way it is. I think enlightenment happens independently of all of that anyhow. The brain is the vehicle, not the destination. Everyone gets where they need to be.
From a strictly literature-based perspective, what appears to be so is that medication in and of itself is not the best means for healing, no matter what the problem: OCD, ADHD, depressive and mood disorders, schizophrenia, you name it. Meds and therapy are the most optimal combination for those disorders which are more hard-wired, therapy for more mild, transient and symptomatic problems.
Wow. I sure said a mouthful!
BTW: Great book to read if you have a mood disorder (depression, bipolar, cyclothymia): Touched with Fire, by Kay Redfield Jamison. It's all about how the most brilliant artists, musicians, thinkers, are almost invariably afflicted with one of these disorders. The more aberrant the brain from the norm the more room for thinking outside the box. This is the gift of a mood disorder, believe it or not.
Jenna
We do know alot more about brain chemistry than what was known in the Buddha's time. I would agree that people are overmedicated in America. Doctors like to prescribe a pill for everything.
As a fellow 12-stepper (16 years now), I followed the thinking of the old timers on medication. I suffered from severe depression for over 20 years. I would blame myself for not working the steps correctly, being too selfish, not helping others enough. Even thought I was at meetings 5 nights a week, working with the newcomer, taking my inventory, and helping set up the meetings, it didn't work. My sponsor finally threatened to take me to psychiatric unit as I had thoughts of suicide daily.
I was put on antidepressants, and have got the depression under control. It has been a hard row to hoe. I discussed with my psychiatrist if I will ever be able to get off medication for depression as that was my goal. We would try to wean me down and I would get all the old thoughts back of suicide and depressed. Therefore, it has to be a neurochemical problem in my case. I will always have to take meds. I don't think the Buddha would have a problem with it since I've done all that I can. If in a few years I am able to get off d/t my practice of Buddhism, I will be elated. But until then, it's a Zoloft and a half a day for me.
It is interesting however, to note that an awful big slice of psychology and analysis is (I'm told by a friend who's a psychotherapist) hinges on Buddhist Philosophy. Buddhism is after all about exploring, training and conquering the Mind (Self) and achieving a state of 'no-self' and ultimately release from the self-imposed fetters of attachment and conditioning.
I Wish you well; I wish you success in your quest for self-mastery, and I wish you Karuna, Prajna and Metta.
Oh, And I also wish you......
.....would tell me where your name is from....!!
I was given that nickname when I was 16 years old. I stand 6"2 and am a big guy with the heart of a teddy bear so I'm called Jerbear by a number of people still. That's what they call me at work and I'm 40 and still like it. So where does Federica come from? I found that interesting.
Noob:
Let me be the first to tell you that I am breathing a huge sigh of relief knowing that you "screwed up" suicide. The reality is that you didn't screw up at all - this is your opportunity to find enlightenment in this lifetime.
Believe me, I have gone through hell within the last month. Whatever is bothering you, I can relate. Trust me when I say there is a way out of the madness. I too was suicidal recently and now I am extremely grateful that I didn't do anything drastic.
We're all here for you. We all suffer, and we can understand, relate, and help you through this.
I am very sad to hear about this. I imagine that the reasons why go very far back, and that there is a great deal of pain involved. However, as Brian has said, I am glad that you are still here. Even in suffering there is much you can learn about life, enough to take you to Enlightenment.
I was afraid to respond because I really never know what to say to people like you and I. I myself was once in a very similar situtaion. I had to spend New Years between 1998-99 in a mental health care facility. It was a very difficult time for me, and nothing anybody said made me feel any better. I had to really learn by myself how to overcome what I was experiencing, this absolute despair. Medicine did nothing for me. Therapy also failed to help. It was a long and painful road to recovery. If I had some great secret of how to just be happy I would share it with you in a hearbeat, but all I can offer is the encouragement to not give up. I do not know what will help you see things in a different light, but for me that thing was the Buddha's teachings. That is why I share my painful past with others. I hope to help those deal with life in a better way, a happier and more skillful way. I truly hope that for you the medicine and therapy will help. For some people it definittely does. The brain is a very complex and fragile thing. But, if you ever need to just talk about it you are always welcome here. There isn't much we can offer, but we can offer our love, support, understanding, and kindness.
I really mean that.
Jason
NirvanaNoob,
Since I'm new to Buddhism, I honestly don't know what he would have thought about therapy or meds. We do know more than they did then. I've been in your shoes with wanting to end my life daily. Everytime I would get in my car I wasn't sure if I would come home because of the thoughts that would go through my head. Zoloft and therapy saved my life. It took about 2.5 years with the combination of both to get my depression under control. I still have short bouts of it, but I know how to deal with it now. The thing you need to know about therapy right off the bat is your therapist can not fix you. You have to be as open and honest as you can be. You must face and deal with the pain inside. I know the Buddha would be for all that.
One thing I have heard from a meditation teacher is that while you are in a severely depressed state, you should not try vispassana (insight) meditation. You can get yourself in a lot of mental sticky situations that way. Samatha meditation (which is what the breathing meditation is) is perfect when in that state of mind. I know that I had enough to deal with being depressed and that doing samatha meditation did make me feel better.
I wish you the best of luck in your recovery from depression. It can happen and I'm living proof of it. I spent 15 years depressed before I got really good help for it and now rarely have a problem with it.