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And I also apologize if my answers of late have been a little curt or irritable. I'm on the Atkins diet, and, as our friend comic pointed out, it has a tendency to make you a little irritable sometimes. The good news, tho, is that I've lost 17 pounds in 2 months! And my blood pressure, which was way up, is now 120/80, which is perfect. I also feel terrific, better than I have in many years. So I'm very happy about that!
Congratulations, Palzang!! I bet your whole body is thanking you. Man, I'd feel so much better if I could 17 pounds. Now that I'm not eating my own weight in honey everyday maybe I'll get back on track.
I believe what he said was something like "Christian myth is silly" - but that was just his bowels talking. I'm sure what he meant was, "I need a good book and a box of Ex-Lax".
Simon, only if you consider the popular belief in the "rapture" and the belief in Christ coming down out of the clouds with his entourage to be Christian myth. I don't. They're just supersitious clap-trap. They have no Biblical foundation. As for the "myth" of Jesus and his death and resurrection, I would never call that silly as I find it very profound. I also don't think it's a myth personally. I think it actually happened.
Brigid, I never really understood the whole story on carbohydrates before. Now I can't even picture myself eating them. It makes my stomach turn to even think about it.
Simon, only if you consider the popular belief in the "rapture" and the belief in Christ coming down out of the clouds with his entourage to be Christian myth. I don't. They're just supersitious clap-trap. They have no Biblical foundation. As for the "myth" of Jesus and his death and resurrection, I would never call that silly as I find it very profound. I also don't think it's a myth personally. I think it actually happened.
Brigid, I never really understood the whole story on carbohydrates before. Now I can't even picture myself eating them. It makes my stomach turn to even think about it.
Palzang
Forgive me, Brother Palzang. When I use the word "myth", I imply a story or history viewed in its overarching symbolic value. In this meaning, historical veracity is irrelevant or peripheral. What matters is the 'teaching' nature of the occurrence. When you say, as you did elsewhere, that "there are no coincidences", you are inviting us to ascribe meaning to apparently disparate events.
It is quite probable that the word "myth" is ill-chosen and I would be most grateful for any suggestions. I have, in the past, used the word "parable" in its meaning of "an earthly story with a heavenly meaning". It also gets rejected, like "myth", for its overtones of fiction.
"Symbol" suggests stasis, whereas these stories are dynamic.
Any ideas? Anyone?
As for the vexed question of interpretation of scriptures and how we should behave towards those who hold different ones from our own, that, I suggest, goes into the realm of Christian hermeneutics. Whilst I have relished such debates, I fear they may be outwith the question of Buddhist/Christian interface. Unless, of course, we can elaborate a genuine Buddho-Christian exegesis, which would, I suggest, assist dialogue. It is an area in which I have been working for a few years now to find the underlying principles of a genuinely inclusive reading. Any such reading has to deal with the 'difficult', exclusive texts, be they in the Bible or the sutras.
Oh, well, if you're going to throw them big words aroud like "hermeneutics" and "exegisis", I'm outta here! :eek:
I'm afraid I kind of lost the thread here and can't quite remember the point of the discussion. I'm not one to put too fine a point on things or to split hairs, frankly. Not something that's important to me.
yes thank u.. reminds me of grumpy old men programs complaining about the kids rubbish text messages.. cus they (old men) write them with perfect grammar lol
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
edited November 2006
And don't forget the old women, Celebrin....Sexist as well as impolitically correct....:poke:
Seriously, though, even if I was using technical terms, I am asking a question that matters to me:
What better word is there than "myth" to describe events or stories which have a scope that touches us beyond the historic events? What other word is there to describe the accounts of events that are believed and, at the same time, whose historicity is questionable, such as the Resurrection in Christianity or the Prophet's ascension to heaven?
yes thank u.. reminds me of grumpy old men programs complaining about the kids rubbish text messages.. cus they (old men) write them with perfect grammar lol
We have words to describe things that help us understand. In some cases, we have many types of words to describe the same thing - in other cases - there is only one word to describe something.
I don't think the way this thread has gone really has anything to do with "words" per se - more along the lines of using Right Technology (I wonder why the Buddha didn't include this one in his list...?)
Sometimes we all get caught up in the moment refuting or making a statement.
Still, it's good that there are so many different types of people to make us think about things, yeah?
its a tv show fede.. lol grumpy old men.. lol they ask 50yr+ celebs about what pisses them off.. its absolutely hilarious.. they also have a grumpy old women show too
its a tv show fede.. lol grumpy old men.. lol they ask 50yr+ celebs about what pisses them off.. its absolutely hilarious.. they also have a grumpy old women show too
I know.....That's my point, Einstein!!
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Seriously, though, even if I was using technical terms, I am asking a question that matters to me:
What better word is there than "myth" to describe events or stories which have a scope that touches us beyond the historic events? What other word is there to describe the accounts of events that are believed and, at the same time, whose historicity is questionable, such as the Resurrection in Christianity or the Prophet's ascension to heaven?
Yes, yes, Simon. It's not a case of pretending to be stupid tho (I don't have to pretend very hard!). I just don't like to dissect Buddhism as a philosophy (or any other religion for that matter). When you start categorizing it and putting it in pigeonholes you miss the point. Buddhanature, or Christ consciousness, or the Tao, or whatever you want to call it, isn't limited in any way. When you start talking about heurism (I don't really know what that word means, truly) and appling labels and all that you're limiting it. You're trying to make it understandable, to put it into your own frame of reference, to bring it into your territory, so to speak, make it less threatening. I don't see much point in that, to be honest. Buddhism or Christianity (I'm talking about what Christ taught, not what the majority of Xians believe) isn't something you can do that with without killing it.
To label something a myth also is to put it in a box, a dry, dusty box with a lid that goes up on a shelf somewhere and becomes part of your territory, part of ego's realm of control. I much prefer Milarepa's model, just sitting with his hand to his ear listening for the teaching in all things.
.................... I much prefer Milarepa's model, just sitting with his hand to his ear listening for the teaching in all things.
Palzang
Absolutely, Palzang dear teacher. All the traditions that I have come across have a similar image and my own daily practice is centred on that simple listening. A couple of Christian saints said something along the same lines. Francis urged his brothers to spread the gospel, using words only when necessary and Thomas Aquinas, having written vast tomes that are still relevant to Christian theology, said that all he had written was worth no more than straw when compared with what he had seen.
In the end, that is all that is left and even more than we need.
It is, however, another matter when we try to unpack the structure. When I read the sutras or commentaries, I am presented with an unfolding of that which may only be experienced. It is not (yet?) subject to objective, empirical, mathematical analysis. Despite that, the great teachers try to outline it to us.
This where the philosphical notion of hermeneutics comes in. I know no other single word for it. It is the understanding of how texts can be read. It allows us to get a handle on what underlies interpretation.
I agree, too, that 'breaking' stories can seem to damage their magic. At the same time, having used fairy stories and myth as therapeutic tools, I have found it powerful too. We do it with some ease when it comes to the stories of vanished cultures: we have no problem with breaking the myths of Olympus or Asgard for example. And I notice that it is an approach you use, too, when you urge us to find symbolic meaning in the Buddhist tales of gods and ghosts. This is a "hermeneutic".
I hope I have explained clearly. I try to use words with some care, particularly when it is a matter of delicacy as cultural "myth".
In the end, it will not make any difference. There seems to be a need in human beings to construct and tell symbolic stories to explain themselves, other people and the world around us. We even construct a personal myth in the same way. In T.A. we called this a "life script". Small children demonstrate this skill. Even if they are not told stories, they will make them up for themselves.
Comments
Palzang
I believe what he said was something like "Christian myth is silly" - but that was just his bowels talking. I'm sure what he meant was, "I need a good book and a box of Ex-Lax".
-bf
Simon, only if you consider the popular belief in the "rapture" and the belief in Christ coming down out of the clouds with his entourage to be Christian myth. I don't. They're just supersitious clap-trap. They have no Biblical foundation. As for the "myth" of Jesus and his death and resurrection, I would never call that silly as I find it very profound. I also don't think it's a myth personally. I think it actually happened.
Brigid, I never really understood the whole story on carbohydrates before. Now I can't even picture myself eating them. It makes my stomach turn to even think about it.
Palzang
Forgive me, Brother Palzang. When I use the word "myth", I imply a story or history viewed in its overarching symbolic value. In this meaning, historical veracity is irrelevant or peripheral. What matters is the 'teaching' nature of the occurrence. When you say, as you did elsewhere, that "there are no coincidences", you are inviting us to ascribe meaning to apparently disparate events.
It is quite probable that the word "myth" is ill-chosen and I would be most grateful for any suggestions. I have, in the past, used the word "parable" in its meaning of "an earthly story with a heavenly meaning". It also gets rejected, like "myth", for its overtones of fiction.
"Symbol" suggests stasis, whereas these stories are dynamic.
Any ideas? Anyone?
As for the vexed question of interpretation of scriptures and how we should behave towards those who hold different ones from our own, that, I suggest, goes into the realm of Christian hermeneutics. Whilst I have relished such debates, I fear they may be outwith the question of Buddhist/Christian interface. Unless, of course, we can elaborate a genuine Buddho-Christian exegesis, which would, I suggest, assist dialogue. It is an area in which I have been working for a few years now to find the underlying principles of a genuinely inclusive reading. Any such reading has to deal with the 'difficult', exclusive texts, be they in the Bible or the sutras.
I'm afraid I kind of lost the thread here and can't quite remember the point of the discussion. I'm not one to put too fine a point on things or to split hairs, frankly. Not something that's important to me.
Sorry!
Palzang
Trust me.
What better word is there than "myth" to describe events or stories which have a scope that touches us beyond the historic events? What other word is there to describe the accounts of events that are believed and, at the same time, whose historicity is questionable, such as the Resurrection in Christianity or the Prophet's ascension to heaven?
:thumbsup:
-bf
We have words to describe things that help us understand. In some cases, we have many types of words to describe the same thing - in other cases - there is only one word to describe something.
I don't think the way this thread has gone really has anything to do with "words" per se - more along the lines of using Right Technology (I wonder why the Buddha didn't include this one in his list...?)
Sometimes we all get caught up in the moment refuting or making a statement.
Still, it's good that there are so many different types of people to make us think about things, yeah?
-bf
Are you sure that's the right finger, bf?
We're all cool here, right?
-bf
I know.....That's my point, Einstein!!
I nevah sed a whurd.....it were Ramblingonmyway....
But of course we are, BF dear....:crazy: :wavey:
Without my glasses, I can't see a thing.
-bf
There's a clue there, somewhere....:buck: :tonguec:
Yes, yes, Simon. It's not a case of pretending to be stupid tho (I don't have to pretend very hard!). I just don't like to dissect Buddhism as a philosophy (or any other religion for that matter). When you start categorizing it and putting it in pigeonholes you miss the point. Buddhanature, or Christ consciousness, or the Tao, or whatever you want to call it, isn't limited in any way. When you start talking about heurism (I don't really know what that word means, truly) and appling labels and all that you're limiting it. You're trying to make it understandable, to put it into your own frame of reference, to bring it into your territory, so to speak, make it less threatening. I don't see much point in that, to be honest. Buddhism or Christianity (I'm talking about what Christ taught, not what the majority of Xians believe) isn't something you can do that with without killing it.
To label something a myth also is to put it in a box, a dry, dusty box with a lid that goes up on a shelf somewhere and becomes part of your territory, part of ego's realm of control. I much prefer Milarepa's model, just sitting with his hand to his ear listening for the teaching in all things.
Palzang
Absolutely, Palzang dear teacher. All the traditions that I have come across have a similar image and my own daily practice is centred on that simple listening. A couple of Christian saints said something along the same lines. Francis urged his brothers to spread the gospel, using words only when necessary and Thomas Aquinas, having written vast tomes that are still relevant to Christian theology, said that all he had written was worth no more than straw when compared with what he had seen.
In the end, that is all that is left and even more than we need.
It is, however, another matter when we try to unpack the structure. When I read the sutras or commentaries, I am presented with an unfolding of that which may only be experienced. It is not (yet?) subject to objective, empirical, mathematical analysis. Despite that, the great teachers try to outline it to us.
This where the philosphical notion of hermeneutics comes in. I know no other single word for it. It is the understanding of how texts can be read. It allows us to get a handle on what underlies interpretation.
I agree, too, that 'breaking' stories can seem to damage their magic. At the same time, having used fairy stories and myth as therapeutic tools, I have found it powerful too. We do it with some ease when it comes to the stories of vanished cultures: we have no problem with breaking the myths of Olympus or Asgard for example. And I notice that it is an approach you use, too, when you urge us to find symbolic meaning in the Buddhist tales of gods and ghosts. This is a "hermeneutic".
I hope I have explained clearly. I try to use words with some care, particularly when it is a matter of delicacy as cultural "myth".
In the end, it will not make any difference. There seems to be a need in human beings to construct and tell symbolic stories to explain themselves, other people and the world around us. We even construct a personal myth in the same way. In T.A. we called this a "life script". Small children demonstrate this skill. Even if they are not told stories, they will make them up for themselves.