Welcome home! Please contact lincoln@icrontic.com if you have any difficulty logging in or using the site. New registrations must be manually approved which may take several days. Can't log in? Try clearing your browser's cookies.
This is a little sobering....
federica
Seeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
...I thought of putting this thread in the 'American Buddhist' Forum, but both the programme and the presenter are English....
There seems to be a powerful and growing "sect" of Christians who think they've cracked the Revelations code..... But their influence - and where it is directed - makes for frightening thought.....
Would anyone care to comment?
I find this a bit scary....
Unfortunately it may have to be left to our American Bretheren and Sistren to voice their opinions through the apposite channels.....
There seems to be a powerful and growing "sect" of Christians who think they've cracked the Revelations code..... But their influence - and where it is directed - makes for frightening thought.....
Would anyone care to comment?
I find this a bit scary....
Unfortunately it may have to be left to our American Bretheren and Sistren to voice their opinions through the apposite channels.....
0
Comments
I saw that programme, Fede, and despite all their claims, I am still fervently of the opinion that the book of the Revelation of St. John The Divine was documenting the fall of jerusalem at the time of Emperor Nero. The fundies (Fundamentalists), I think, like to spread fear. To paraphrase the film about the Kray Twins, "When people are afraid of you, you can do anything. Remember that."
Anybody here read Left Behind? It is religious soft porn about the Rapture and the Tribulation and is, I fear, the first of multiple sequels.
You're right - it is religious soft porn. Just the kind of material to get people in the Bible Belt worked up into a tizzy.
I mean, if you ignored the poor writing, weak story line, incredibly unbelievable circumstances (even worse than E.R Burroughs) and escapes - it was enjoyable for me to go back to all the crap I had had shoved down my throat (regarding the end of the world) as a youth.
Ahhh!, precious memories.
-bf
Buddhafoot,
I agree with you. I can also remember the garbage I was taught at a child, too! YIKES!
Adiana
...I also read Left Behind, too. It was the kids' version, though, so not as much gore and violence and whatnot. Just enough to get me paranoid for life. :banghead:
I notice that the "lords of the bedchamber", the rich and powerful, the establishment, p;retend even harder, whatever the people may have noticed. And I wonder what happened to the child!
My website got hacked recently, indirectly because of the server which it was hosted on was wrecked by Islamic cyber-terrorists. Well, me and Argon have talked about it, and it was really an experience. Anyway, when my website is back, perhaps the stories will be, too.
However, what I write I stress often is religious fiction.
My latest series, which I have not written a single word of it yet, is supposedly, however, meant to be a tragedy-satire of Christian fundamentalism and many branches of Christian beliefs.
As for the literal interpretation of Revelation, to me, it's another sad story in Christian history. More than once have I raised my disillusionment with the religious group for it - going against the verified beliefs of CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS themselves.
Religion doesn't deserve to die. Fundamentalism just ought to be dead.
Oooops. This is in response to Simon's question about the boy who could see the emperor was naked. I guess I took a long time to post! lol!
Ajani, I'd love to read those stories some day. I hope you get your site back up and running.
Palzang
(hmmm, Pogo...Palzang, kind of onomatopoeic, ainnit?"
I truly find the Fundamentalist movement disturbing. As a former member of it, I remember them talking about plans to make America more Christian by only electing people who shared their beliefs. We have gotten almost 8 years of Bush for it. Whether he is a Christian or not hasn't been seen yet, but they think he is.
The first point that bothers me is that people will stop using the people's power to vote intelligently. "Rev. Smith said this candidate was more in line with Christian beliefs (pro-life, intelligent design, antigay) than that evil candidate who is a liberal. I'll vote for who Rev. Smith TOLD ME TO!". The church should never be involved in politics in my opinion. They work in completely different spheres. I feel my religious freedom is being held hostage by Christians when they use their faith as a reason against gay marriage. I have to follow their beliefs, not mine. If people are led to believe that a candidate is allied more closely with their beliefs, they will vote for them. Here in Michigan, a candidate for governor openly endorsed intelligent design being taught in science classes. Though some things about ID are beautiful, it isn't science because it is based on faith. They want to use the jargon, but strip it of what it means.
Second point that bothers me is what happens when the Christians vote for someone and then they tell them "Sorry, I've changed my mind". I could possibly get out there and say I'm a Republican, married, 2.5 kids, god fearing, Bible Believing Xtian and some would vote for me based on that. Then I come out. (Didn't this just happen? I've been battling depression all summer and heard something about it but really didn't pay attention to it) I'm still in office for 3 years.
Or another way is that when the church starts to get involved in government, then government gets involved in religion. I don't want anyone in any government telling me what to believe. As you all know, I consider my self to be an agnostic. What if it became mandatory to believe a certain way because the Christians wanted it. But then what sect? What Bible? What Church? What rules? Some are liberal and some are so strict it took me 10 years after leaving it to begin to live a life again. Once the government gets involved, they can tell a church what to do. Those faith initiatives Georgie boy loved was the government giving churches money. But once the church gives money, you may be force to compromise your beliefs.
And by the way, I think the fundies are the whore of Satan spoken of and the Republican party is the Antichrist. I'm not sure if Fede agrees with that though. LOL!!
Just an update. Progress has been a bit slow recovering from this bout of depression. I do come on here and read things plus think about you all every day. Know that I haven't given up!
Palzang
I'VE missed you more.
-bf
Palzang
Hang in there Jerry! Lots of hugs to you, and I hope you are feeling better very soon. Please let me know if I can do anything to help you out!
Remember that one time you awarded me a "chick" or "bitch" card?
Well, I'm using it now to trump these two clowns.
I HAVE MISSED YOU THE MOST.
I have this pain in my heart and stomach waiting for your retur... oh wait. Ummm... that was just gas.
Can I have my chick card back?
-bf
The Fundies scare the crap out of me, too! YIKES!
By the way, I liked your post and I agree with it!
Also, I am so glad that 12 years of Republican control are now over with, too! WOOHOO!
Adiana:usflag: :rockon:
I've seen several different films about the end times. All of which happened to be horrible and simply terrifying (especially to a young child). It is certainly a good way to control your followers and recruit more by saying, "If you do things this way, you will be saved from death and destruction." And yet, what they have to offer, many times, is destructive. Where in the hell did they come up with the term "rapture"? As far as I know there is only one reference in the Bible to anything that would be somewhat similar to a "rapture". This shows how unhealthy and unwise it is to stake a claim on one book that is believed to have the answers to all of life's problems or questions.
My father told me recently that he read a book that suggested and gave evidence toward the formation of the idea of the rapture and a single anit-Christ. (I'm sure I won't do the book justice) Apparently, at one point so many people were leaving the Catholic church because they believed the Pope (at the time) to be anit-Christ. So, in return there was a secret meeting of high Catholic officials to discuss the matter and determine how to entice people back into the Catholic church. The idea they came up with was to twist the Biblical scriptures just enough in order to make the people believe that the Pope wasn't anti-Christ because the Bible was (supposedly) talking about AN anti-Christ that was going to come in the future and attempt to rule the world. Now they had another problem. They needed to assure the people that they didn't really need to worry about the anti-Christ because they would be "raptured" and saved from all the supposed destruction.
Well, that was the jist of it, anyways. Has anyone else heard anything similar?
Don't worry too much, BTS, because it is not "the majority of CVhristians", although it may be the majority of noisy Christians. The whole 'end times/rapture' body of myth is remarkable new in Christian thinking and preaching, outside small fringe groups.
There have been other views.
If you are interested in alternative interpretations of the eschatological aspects of the Newe Testament, you might like to reflect on the views of the True Levellers: Gerrard Winstanley and his friends believed that the Second Coming refers, not to a physical event 'out there', but to the entering of Christ into the heart of the believer. A very different take, I think you will agree.
Palzang
It's true. I should remember not to exaggerate my claims about Christians. I looked up a little bit of information on the True Levellers. Their ideas sound quite intriguing and somewhat agreeable.
How else could it happen? Christ coming down out of the clouds on a throne surrounded by multitudes of the angelic host? Is there anyone who still believes that fairy tale? (Yes, I know there are, it was a rhetorical question).
Palzang
Would you not say, o Palzang-la, that many Buddhists believe in lots of 'fairy stories'? Tales of wonder, tales of buddhas that have been and buddhas to come? I think that human beings have a visceral need for mystery and myth because there is no other way to have any sort of handle on such a mysterious universe.
Joseph Campbell worried that we were a generation without myth, but we disagrred on that. He would never accept my view that we swim in our myth as a fish swims in water: we take it as the 'real' medium. Only when the myth has begun to break do we see it for what it is: an attempt, doomed to fail, to provide a narrative for the unexplained.
When people's lives are encompassed by death and the living is hard, stories arise of saviours-to-come, be it Jesus, Arthur, David, Red-bearded Frederick or the Maitreya. In a sense, it is what underlies the notion that this, here, now, samsara is just so horrid that we must hope that there is something better coming along. In situations where there appears to be no possibility that a person can make anything better, hope can only survive if there is a myth of a better future.
Palzang
Whilst wanting to make a distinction between myth and superstition, I would agree. But then the question must arise as to what we mean by superstition. Is is superstitious to walk clockwise round thge Lake at Rewalsar whilst Hindus walked anti-clockwise? Is it superstitious to revere the Buddha's tooth or the Turin shroud? Is it superstitious to believe that ceratin ritual actions bring benefits?
Having been exposed to the stripped-down Christianity of the evangelicals and the high rituals of pre-Vatican II Catholicism, I am really not sure that I can be certain any more where the line is to be drawn. A Catholic may excoriate astrology as superstition and then genuflect to the tabernacle containing the Host. A Hindu scientist may dismiss alternative medicine as superstition and still leave milk in front of a statue of Sri Ganesh.
Even in the secular world, superstition is everywhere. Look at the way in which the Stars and Stripes flag is folded in ritual. Look how we accord special status to heads of state whom, the day before their elevation, we would not have hurried to put out were they on fire.
I think that people have a functional need for superstition and ritual built into them, just as they need the metaphor of myth. When we recognise these within ourselves and 'break' them, they tend to be replaced by new ones which, as hitherto, we notice as little as we notice our own accent.
I would like to ask, is this not the same thing as buddhists waiting for the next incarnation of the next Buddha to arrive?
Tibetan Buddhists wait for the next Dalai Lama to appear after the death of the previous one don't they?
maybe i'm lost, but I feel that this is either very similar or the same thing.
God doesn't prefer anyone to another, and in that sense there are no real rules.. we gotta do the best we can with what we got.. not use preconcepts and imperfect human teachings and doctrine.
in that sense religion in politics is ridiculous and shows yet another biased load of crap being forced on ppl. Truth of god lies in no preconcepts.. not in the singular mind of a politician.
As for tibetan buddhists... lol anyone in my opinion who considers themselves a buddhist isn't one. Cus there are no social groups.
I think you lost me, the tone of your reply has me confused....forget it.
I consider myself Buddhist and yet I'm not one??? yes I am lost.:eek2:
I'm not waiting for the next incarnation of the Buddha. Where did you get such a notion? The Buddha never left us. If you think he did, it's because you don't really understand what he taught. Buddha appears for me constantly in the form of my own Root Guru, so who is it I would be waiting for? Buddha is my own primordial wisdom nature, so where would I look?
As for the Dalai Lama, he has vowed to return lifetime after lifetime for the sake of sentient beings, so I have no doubt he will continue to do that. Same for any Bodhisattva. I don't really see any comparison to those who await the triumphant return of Jesus. To me, those people have no clue what Jesus was actually teaching.
Palzang
Palzang
I agree. I couldn't follow a ritual of any kind if I didn't know why I was doing it, or at the very least didn't know that it was somehow helping to train my mind in some positive way. I used to use magical thinking when I was younger and it was pure superstition and I can see now how I got into the habit of doing things for no reason that I knew. It's one of the things I started noticing when I began thinking of and practicing Right View. It was interesting to see how silly my behaviour was, how lacking in meaning other than rote and mindless habit. Although it was somewhat embarrassing to see myself in that light, it helped me become aware of when I was doing it and helped me to stop. I wanted control over something in this mysterious life. But now that I understand a little more, I don't need that security blanket anymore. I want results now. lol!! And I'm seeing them everyday in so many ways. I'm not spinning my wheels nearly as much.
I'm off topic, aren't I?
Just as a quick note, in Buddhism this superstitious or ritualistic behavior is covered under the four types of clinging: clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rituals and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self (MN 9).
Sincerely,
Leto II
Understanding exactly what you mean, Palzang, I remove my shoes on entering a mosque or temple but not in church, I cover my head in schul but uncover in church. These are respectful behaviours. I also genuflect before the Blessed Sacrament and prostrate in a Buddhist temple out of respect.
But where do these rituals arise? Why do we do them? The custom of direction of circumambulation for example: does it make any difference to the person or the universe? Is the Buddha's tooth endued with some special power that does not exist in my own teeth? Surely such a belief can only be either beneficial in some inexplicable (and unobservable) way or it is superstition. It all depends on one's own belief set.
Of course, we justify our own superstitions by finding personal use within them. And then we can knock others' actions as superstitious because we do not find such use.
What I am trying to express is my concern that one person's important and life-enhancing ritual may be classed as 'superstitious' to another. The Protestant Reformation and many contemporary anti-Catholics see the reverence offered to the Sacrament or the relics of saints or the use of the rosary as superstition. Catholics see them as important aids to spiritual growth. Who is 'right'?
To paraphrase G. K. Chesterton: "My practice is religion; other people's practices are superstition." Is this how we are to practise respect? Not in my book, I fear.
There is a contemporary tendency, which has been evidenced in these fora, about "getting it right", as if these were magical formulae. Magic requires what McLuhan calls "rite words in rote order". Is this not exactly what the ritualist demands? But, when we depart from the rituals laid down by authorities and inspired people, are the effects lost? Do non-beneficial results ensue?
Palzang
*Gassho*
Whilst I commend the respect and devotion shown to one's Master or Teacher, it is a poor pupil who accepts, unquestioningly, everything that is placed before him...I don't mean that questions should bear the tinge of challenge, but curiosity can help us grow....
Also, eventually, a child will discover exactly WHY a hot stove should not be touched....but as to some of the ritualistic mysteries.... maybe they have been practised for so long, that even our Teacher's Teacher's Teacher had forgotten the 'why'.....
I remember watching a ritual performed by the teacher at a weekend workshop on Intuitive Shiatsu, and the teacher was performing a specific ritual with various implements, when he placed something on the left of his altar, that should have gone on the right-hand side...
You can guess what happened when all his students had to repeat the ritual for themselves.....
My response is that you completely don't understand the teacher-student relationship in Vajrayana Buddhism nor the meaning of the so-called "rituals" employed in its practice. Everything that is done in the practices is done for a specific reason. They're not arbitrary, and they're not obscure. Everything has meaning!
Palzang
cool. Re-read my post, please. I don't believe I was alluding to JUST you.:scratch: or your personal beliefs.
sorry for offending-once again.
That said, there are probably as many people who hold silly, superstitious beliefs in Buddhism as there are in any religion. People believe at the level they are capable of, and if the level they are capable of is the level of, say, a child, then that's cool. I support them in their beliefs because it's the best they can do. Same with Xians and others who hold similar beliefs. I have compassion for them because, most of the time, they are sincere in their beliefs, even if misguided. Of course, some are just charlatans and rip-off artists, but I'm sure there are Buddhist versions of them too. I just want to differentiate between superstitious beliefs that are just magical thinking and serious beliefs that may appear superstitious to someone looking from outside and not understanding what's going on. Celebrin's silly remark about Tibetan Buddhism would fall into this category.
Palzang
cheers!