rope-a-dope spiritual life

genkaku

Posted elsewhere this morning, but thought I would post here as well:

In boxing, rope-a-dope is a technique in which a fighter allows himself to be trapped along the ropes, where his opponent proceeds to pound him. The force of the blows transmits itself to the ropes and the one being pummeled suffers relatively less than what it looks like. When the opponent starts to run out of energy, the fighter counter-attacks and, with luck, wins.

With some whimsy and some seriousness, I wonder today if the serious spiritual aspirant isn't basically availing himself of a rope-a-dope technique ... allowing himself to be trapped, cornered and pummeled by theologies and rituals and intellectual convolutions and emotional confusions ... vast, intricate, convincing, consuming ... sitting still as salt along the ropes of the meditation cushion ... biff-bam-boom for years and years and years until ... until ... until....

The time for a winning attack presents itself -- it's time to cut the religious crap -- and the dope reveals himself.

riverflow

In a similar vein, Sheng Yen told this story (from an interview):

In a story that could have been taken from the pages of classic Zen literature, the young Sheng-yen was on a brief sabbatical from the military, visiting local Ch'an teachers when, while up late one night meditating, he found himself sitting near an older man, also a guest of the monastery, who impressed Sheng-yen with his steady and peaceful demeanor. Asking the elderly monk if he would answer a question or two, Sheng-yen proceeded to pour out his heart for two hours, giving voice to all of the questions that no one had been able to help him with during his many years of spiritual practice. And at the end of each question, the monk, whom Sheng-yen would later find out was actually a revered Ch'an master, would simply ask, "Is that all?" Finally, Sheng-yen had exhausted his litany of questions and, in a moment of confusion, hesitated, not knowing what to do. Bang! The monk struck the platform they were sitting on and roared, "Take all of your questions and put them down! Who has all of these questions?" The effect on Sheng-yen was immediate and profound. "In that instant all of my questions were gone," he writes. "The whole world had changed. My body ran with perspiration but felt extraordinarily light. The person I had been was laughable. I felt like I had dropped a thousand-pound burden." The words of the Buddhist sutras [scriptures], which once seemed foreign and impenetrable, now came alive as Sheng-yen's own experience. "I understood them immediately, without explanation," he writes. "I felt as if they were my own words."

I do think-- especially for stubborn ones (myself included!) have to exhaust our delusions in order to recognize the insight that belonged to us all along.

Jeffrey

I don't think so. I think you are projecting a very complex personal experience and villifying "those" parcitioners. Sorry; sometimes you are brilliant. Maybe I just didn't 'get' this. I like the part that when the storm is away from the harbor then we can set sale for a new voyage.

Foruilive

I saw Ali rope-a-dope plenty...he slowed his body down, put his arms against his ribs and head and was content, and it didn't matter what was thrown at him, he innately knew his course, and he took pleasure in his creation. Perfect. Bark your own dogma. they did...as it moves West new ideas will lead the way. Now, with prostrations I shall add a rope-a-dope !

Jeffrey

Ali said "you can't rope a dope the rope a dope dope"

Jeffrey

I think it is more like those trick birthday candles. They always relight. Rising sun. What you are trying to do is to get them to blow out. But they always relight. Oh, what a nuisance. All of the books and so forth yield fruit in spiral learning. It might not be the one for you.. at least not now. Yet the dharma is good in the beginning, middle, and end. So when you buy the kite.. think about it everyday longing.. and then finally in the wind you fly it.

Trying to understand :orange:

Citta

After three readings I found myself unable to avail myself of the wisdom contained in the OP Jeffrey..which is posh talk for saying I haven't the slightest idea what it means or how it applies to any meditation practice I have experience of.
But thats OK.
Metaphors are just metaphors, and some hit home to us and some don't.

_/\_

Florian

riverflow said:

<
I do think-- especially for stubborn ones (myself included!) have to exhaust our delusions in order to recognize the insight that belonged to us all along.

Makes sense to me, being stubborn also.

Sabre

I think for many people it is true that they are holding onto the ropes, or as the Buddha would say, holding onto the raft. Having all kinds of theories, ideologies and techniques.. until one day they realize this doesn't get them what they are looking for and they're finally able to let go; out of insight or out of desperation, that doesn't even matter. And tada, the answers present themselves.

Citta

Sabre said:

I think for many people it is true that they are holding onto the ropes, or as the Buddha would say, holding onto the raft. Having all kinds of theories, ideologies and techniques.. until one day they realize this doesn't get them what they are looking for and they're finally able to let go. And tada, the answers present themselves.

IF this is true...then why not cut out all the middleman flim-flam ?

What prevents it ?

riverflow

Florian said:

Makes sense to me, being stubborn also.

I excel at learning the hard way. LOL

Sabre

Citta said:

Sabre said:

I think for many people it is true that they are holding onto the ropes, or as the Buddha would say, holding onto the raft. Having all kinds of theories, ideologies and techniques.. until one day they realize this doesn't get them what they are looking for and they're finally able to let go. And tada, the answers present themselves.

IF this is true...then why not cut out all the middleman flim-flam ?

What prevents it ?

Because people have some sort of need of something to hold onto. They may think they have to do stuff to get stuff. Or they think they need to work hard before they earn some peace. Especially on meditation retreats I always found people trying to put things together, holding onto a technique or idea of how it should be; some more obvious than others. Not criticizing them, of course. Perhaps they just need to learn this way. And it is a bit of a generalization, but one I think holds quite some truth.

Citta

So in that cases that you describe, meditation is a matter of egoic struggle...? Operation bootstraps ? The triumph of the will ?
How can that ever do other than prolong itself ?

Sabre

Well it deserves some attenuation first. Sometimes it may be a full struggle, sometimes just a small itchy thing.

How it not prolongs itself is realizing one way or the other that trying to pursue happiness is pushing it away. With happiness I mean peace and contentment.

Citta

Which I would suggest, is not a realisation that time can solve.
Its a question of letting go. Not gaining.
It happens by Insight..not experience. Or else all old, worn -down people would be wise.
And they ain't, are they ?

Florian

Not any old experience.

rivercane

Jeffrey said:

Ali said "you can't rope a dope the rope a dope dope"

Yep, the greatest of all time. :rockon: