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You need to cultivate fertile minds first. Ones that are not distracted by hunger, fear, and sickness.
Let's trot down to Haiti.... You will say "You know why you suffer? The three mental poisons. You need the Dhamma." They will say "I need food." You will say "Listen to my truth." They will say "Listen to my dying baby."
I feel it is unintelligent, unwise, ineffective, and inefficient to try to fulfill spiritual needs over physical needs. A gallon of water, a supply of food, warm clothes, and caring go further than words.
Buddhism has been around for 2500 years. Suffering still persists. Plenty of people know of the Dhamma. Those same people still suffer. SE Asia, near the heart of Buddhism, still suffers. The Dhamma will not end suffering by being taught or spread.
You can sow a million seeds in the desert. That doesn't mean they will grow...
Wise, indeed. I like your posts. I think you are someone here who does have understanding. However, i'm not aiming to directly help the starving, instead, i'm looking to help those who, through self-cherishing and ignorant delusion, allow starving to happen everyday whilst they get fat. Hence the business forum. Putting profit before people causes a lot of problems. If we can spread the Dharma in the west then we may create a compassionate revolution that ripples out throughout all humanity. So, I agree with the above, and I love how you express your understanding, but it's not quite relevant to what i'm trying to do. Thank you, though. I appreciate you taking your time to post here.
You are suggesting a top down approach where we change/influence those who have considerable "power" (aka, money and resources) in the world. By changing those people, you hope to get their resources to move in the direction you want (to those less fortunate).
Whereas the rest of us are considering a bottom-up approach. In which we, ourselves, give our own resources to those we would like to help. So, instead of ourselves helping just a few people, we leverage those with more "power" to expand our reach.
Both angles have their merits. When I act on my own resources, I know that it is done. But when we act through others, we cannot be certain their action coincides with our will. However, the pay off could be much larger.
You are suggesting a top down approach where we change/influence those who have considerable "power" (aka, money and resources) in the world. By changing those people, you hope to get their resources to move in the direction you want (to those less fortunate).
Whereas the rest of us are considering a bottom-up approach. In which we, ourselves, give our own resources to those we would like to help. So, instead of ourselves helping just a few people, we leverage those with more "power" to expand our reach.
Both angles have their merits. When I act on my own resources, I know that it is done. But when we act through others, we cannot be certain their action coincides with our will. However, the pay off could be much larger.
Very nicely put! I'll explain something first... When I have some inspiration it tends not to be formulated in concepts, it's more of a vision, or an essence of something... I can't really explain, but what happens through discussions like this is that that initial inspiration - that sense of something - begins to take form in concepts, ideas, words, and, basically, tangible things to be brought into the world. It's quite hard to describe the process. Anyway, with regards to what you have said above... YES! But I hadn't thought of it from that angle yet.
So, in a sense, the spiritually reluctant / skeptical audiences I am targeting are the main causes of much of the suffering on this planet. Business being an obvious one. By finding a way to share the Dharma with them I am (hopefully) eliminating the causes of much of the material suffering on this planet, which would then free more humans being up to engage in spiritual practice, which is what you alluded to in your previous post.
Hmmm. I like how this vision is forming. You have a beautiful mind, and a great way of forming ideas into a clear structure. I think a lot of my motivation stems from working with addicts and seeing how much effort and time goes in for very little outcome. It just struck me that it would be a lot more effective and efficient to actually focus on healing our societies so that we don't have people turning to drink and drugs. Granted, this is a huge task!
So yeah, we can work from the bottom up, and we need to, but if we really want to help this planet then we need to change the minds of those who create the most suffering... those who cherish themselves above others. Thank you for your response.
We can't change the world, we can only change ourselves and, in so doing, change the world.
But we can and do change the world every moment by simply being alive! Changing who we are is absolutely the first step and should always be our priority, BUT, our actions in the world demonstrate who we are. How many great enlightened teachers do you know of who sat and did nothing? They are all acting to change the world. You act to change the world. Your response was an action that changed the world. You can't not change the world. Accept this and then realise that if you act consciously to change the world then you can perform miracles on this planet, as many have done before.
If you read my quote again you'll see I'm agreeing with you.
We can't change the world, we can only change ourselves and, in so doing, change the world.
But we can and do change the world every moment by simply being alive! Changing who we are is absolutely the first step and should always be our priority, BUT, our actions in the world demonstrate who we are. How many great enlightened teachers do you know of who sat and did nothing? They are all acting to change the world. You act to change the world. Your response was an action that changed the world. You can't not change the world. Accept this and then realise that if you act consciously to change the world then you can perform miracles on this planet, as many have done before.
If you read my quote again you'll see I'm agreeing with you.
Cool! I didn't quite get that, but okay. I'd like to hear your expanded thoughts on it...?
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federicaSeeker of the clear blue sky...Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubtModerator
Yeah, I promise. Don't worry. I know where i'm not wanted. Haha.
Presumably, that's why you're here, and not there....
Whether you like my words on a screen or not, at least i'm good value for a thread or two.
Define 'good value'.....
Nothing wrong with some spice here and there.
That depends what you spice. Curry, agreed. Strawberry jelly, not so much.
Let's face it, you could all just ignore me, no?
Alas, papañca is addictive. Like popcorn, it's blown up and full of air yet strangely compelling.
What do you mean by 'blown up' and 'full of air'?
I came here curious as to the state of modern Buddhism. We live in a world of incredible and extensive suffering and Buddhism offers many means to help relieve that, and yet, a lot of Buddhists seem somewhat unmotivated to use these blessed means to relieve all of this suffering. This can only be due to ignorance and delusion, because, if it was you who was starving to death or in war zone then you'd be extremely motivated to end your suffering, so what is the difference? None, according to the Buddha.
So, what is the problem here? Why all the pondering? We have plentiful means to relieve vast amounts of suffering on this planet, and in the process of relieving this suffering we enable our own path to enlightenment. It's a win - win. I know that if you, Federica, were starving to death then you'd be praying with all your heart that there was someone out there who had the passion to try and motivate and mobilise those who are perfectly capable of making a difference to your plight. This is all i'm trying to do. I'm trying to wake you all up to your incredible power to effect real, meaningful change in this world.
You may not like how direct I am in speech at times, but again, if it was you starving to death, would you not feel like giving the apathetic masses a kick up the arse? Instead, you choose to come into here and take little pot shots at me. If that is how you wish to be then so be it. You are free, you have your reasons for doing so, it's not for me to tell you not to. But i'd ask you to question why, and to consider of what value or purpose you feel your contributions in this thread have been.
I know that some feel I have been rude to them, but I haven't, I've just very abruptly halted their delusional minds - not to hurt them, but to help them, and to help them to then help others. Again, consider the urgency and directness you would hope for if it was you starving to death right now. So, please, I know you are very intelligent, I know you are highly educated in Buddhism, why not use that to help me to understand and shape my passion and my intent? That doesn't mean agreeing with me, but actively questioning and challenging my ideas so that I am better able to help more and more people. I'm going to be doing it anyway, why not assist me?
I had to look it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_proliferation and I'm glad I did. It's pretty important to know about and watch out for. Federica's comment is appropriate. How come you don't want to take your own advice? That is to listen and learn. It's hard to learn if you think you know it all already. The old cup that is full scenario.
I had to look it up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_proliferation and I'm glad I did. It's pretty important to know about and watch out for. Federica's comment is appropriate. How come you don't want to take your own advice? That is to listen and learn. It's hard to learn if you think you know it all already. The old cup that is full scenario.
I've listened to everyone and i've learnt what i've needed to learn. Who determines your learning - you, or those around you?
As for 'conceptual proliferation'... really?? So, when you no longer can argue the ideas you simply dismiss them under some vague categorisation that you hadn't even heard of? Do you really think that this small discussion of very basic ideas is befitting of such a lofty category?
It's hardly a "lofty category". Have you ever heard this expression? "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit." When you are doing it to yourself, it's papanca. Everyone else can see it, just not you. I mean really, what does people starving have to do with what you are promoting in this thread? Starving people generally don't have time to discuss the Dharma on the Internet. You are proposing to help people who are not begging for help. Who don't even know they are hungry. How's that going by the way? As for you waking the rest of us up, c'mon, talk about a lofty view of yourself, I, for one, am 58. My life is established. My career is nearly over. My kids are grown. You are not abruptly halting anything about my mind. The things I do for others, the wisdom I can impart, are not things that I can box up and sell. It's personal. Not for public consumption. I'd like to avoid a pat on the back, when ever possible.
I mean really, what does people starving have to do with what you are promoting in this thread?
If we can heal the western money and business orientated minds that exploit other people and countries, keeping them impoverished, in debt and in effective servitude to us, then we would go a long way to ending world poverty. We need to find ways to connect with that money and business orientated mind. We need to have dialogue with them, we need to be willing to understand them, and we need to be able to offer them something that they desire. This is my task. If it wasn't, then why would I be talking about it? It is in my heart and in my mind... I don't know why, it just is, and so I walk this path. It is a large undertaking, to say the least, but so was ending slavery, and so was equal rights for women and other ethnic groups, and so were many other human accomplishments. I might never live to see this objective accomplished, but I can sew seeds, I can lay the initial foundations, and I can make a difference by making an effort and believing in myself and my task at hand. That you see it as bullshit, and that Federica sees it as hot air is sad, but I can't twist your arms - i've tried, but it is clear that this approach does not work. Maybe my communication has failed me, but I didn't see any other way of arousing some passion, some interest and some motivation. It sounds to me like you've earned some peace in your remaining years. I hope it is so.
Comments
It is between top-down and bottom-up.
You are suggesting a top down approach where we change/influence those who have considerable "power" (aka, money and resources) in the world. By changing those people, you hope to get their resources to move in the direction you want (to those less fortunate).
Whereas the rest of us are considering a bottom-up approach. In which we, ourselves, give our own resources to those we would like to help. So, instead of ourselves helping just a few people, we leverage those with more "power" to expand our reach.
Both angles have their merits. When I act on my own resources, I know that it is done. But when we act through others, we cannot be certain their action coincides with our will. However, the pay off could be much larger.
So, in a sense, the spiritually reluctant / skeptical audiences I am targeting are the main causes of much of the suffering on this planet. Business being an obvious one. By finding a way to share the Dharma with them I am (hopefully) eliminating the causes of much of the material suffering on this planet, which would then free more humans being up to engage in spiritual practice, which is what you alluded to in your previous post.
Hmmm. I like how this vision is forming. You have a beautiful mind, and a great way of forming ideas into a clear structure. I think a lot of my motivation stems from working with addicts and seeing how much effort and time goes in for very little outcome. It just struck me that it would be a lot more effective and efficient to actually focus on healing our societies so that we don't have people turning to drink and drugs. Granted, this is a huge task!
So yeah, we can work from the bottom up, and we need to, but if we really want to help this planet then we need to change the minds of those who create the most suffering... those who cherish themselves above others. Thank you for your response.
Curry, agreed.
Strawberry jelly, not so much. Alas, papañca is addictive. Like popcorn, it's blown up and full of air yet strangely compelling.
Curry, agreed.
Strawberry jelly, not so much. Alas, papañca is addictive. Like popcorn, it's blown up and full of air yet strangely compelling.
What do you mean by 'blown up' and 'full of air'?
I came here curious as to the state of modern Buddhism. We live in a world of incredible and extensive suffering and Buddhism offers many means to help relieve that, and yet, a lot of Buddhists seem somewhat unmotivated to use these blessed means to relieve all of this suffering. This can only be due to ignorance and delusion, because, if it was you who was starving to death or in war zone then you'd be extremely motivated to end your suffering, so what is the difference? None, according to the Buddha.
So, what is the problem here? Why all the pondering? We have plentiful means to relieve vast amounts of suffering on this planet, and in the process of relieving this suffering we enable our own path to enlightenment. It's a win - win. I know that if you, Federica, were starving to death then you'd be praying with all your heart that there was someone out there who had the passion to try and motivate and mobilise those who are perfectly capable of making a difference to your plight. This is all i'm trying to do. I'm trying to wake you all up to your incredible power to effect real, meaningful change in this world.
You may not like how direct I am in speech at times, but again, if it was you starving to death, would you not feel like giving the apathetic masses a kick up the arse? Instead, you choose to come into here and take little pot shots at me. If that is how you wish to be then so be it. You are free, you have your reasons for doing so, it's not for me to tell you not to. But i'd ask you to question why, and to consider of what value or purpose you feel your contributions in this thread have been.
I know that some feel I have been rude to them, but I haven't, I've just very abruptly halted their delusional minds - not to hurt them, but to help them, and to help them to then help others. Again, consider the urgency and directness you would hope for if it was you starving to death right now. So, please, I know you are very intelligent, I know you are highly educated in Buddhism, why not use that to help me to understand and shape my passion and my intent? That doesn't mean agreeing with me, but actively questioning and challenging my ideas so that I am better able to help more and more people. I'm going to be doing it anyway, why not assist me?
It's pretty important to know about and watch out for. Federica's comment is appropriate.
How come you don't want to take your own advice? That is to listen and learn.
It's hard to learn if you think you know it all already. The old cup that is full scenario.
As for 'conceptual proliferation'... really?? So, when you no longer can argue the ideas you simply dismiss them under some vague categorisation that you hadn't even heard of? Do you really think that this small discussion of very basic ideas is befitting of such a lofty category?
Have you ever heard this expression?
"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit."
When you are doing it to yourself, it's papanca.
Everyone else can see it, just not you.
I mean really, what does people starving have to do with what you are promoting in this thread?
Starving people generally don't have time to discuss the Dharma on the Internet.
You are proposing to help people who are not begging for help. Who don't even know they are hungry. How's that going by the way?
As for you waking the rest of us up, c'mon, talk about a lofty view of yourself,
I, for one, am 58. My life is established. My career is nearly over. My kids are grown.
You are not abruptly halting anything about my mind.
The things I do for others, the wisdom I can impart, are not things that I can box up and sell. It's personal. Not for public consumption. I'd like to avoid a pat on the back, when ever possible.